• invo_rt [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    My econ professors were very explicit that there was no "math" associated with econ. We never learned a single formula. We did learn graphs, but with the emphasis that the graphs have no numerical values on them, only that they indicate trends.

    • Wheaties [comrade/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      if they could find real-number examples for their theoretical graphs, they'd have incorporated them into the lecture by now.

    • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Economist: "And if you look here, I'm going to draw a line on this piece of paper. This line is intuitively correct."

      Student: "So it's reflected in the real world data?"

      Economist: "Well no..."

      Student: "Oh, is it the result of an experiment performed in ideal conditions?"

      Economist: "Er, those actually say something else..."

      Student: "Oh. So where does it come from?"

      Economist: "Some guy 50 years ago said it had good vibes, so we just go with this."

    • ClimateChangeAnxiety [he/him, they/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      You’d think this would click for them that what they’re saying is bullshit. If this is real, why don’t you have any real numbers to back it up? Why is it all “trends” that don’t actually ever line up with reality?

  • cynesthesia
    ·
    edit-2
    9 months ago

    deleted by creator

    • iridaniotter [she/her, they/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      It's weird how in the 18th and 19th century you had liberal political economists but today the only ones left are obscure Marxists. Instead the field is completely overrun by the pseudoscience of economics. Yet 200 years ago biologists were measuring skulls to explain why slavery is good. Now race science is almost completely marginalized. How has capitalist society on the one hand removed the fetters of ideology in some fields of science yet on the other hand allow ideology to make one field of science nearly useless???

      • AHopeOnceMore [he/him]B
        ·
        1 year ago

        Economics serves to maintain the bourgeois state and capitalism's place in the academy. It launders pro-capital policy as if were simply some kind of scientific truth and helps to justify and maintain a particular pro-capital economic equilibrium.

        When the math and theory are relatively rigorous in economics, they are nearly always posed as a means of maintaining the pro-capital status quo. Metrics of worker power become markers of instability (for that status quo, this is true!), for example. The better their ideas are at keeping capital on top, the more likely they are to get traction.

  • structuralize_this [none/use name]
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    The best part about econ is that when there is math, it's presented as being this mysteries black box that just outputs values.

    :geordi-no: Exponential compounding interest formula

    :geordi-yes: "Future value of money"

    • Farman [any]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Exponential compound interest at least is a real thing. They hold put it as a problem to derive it in the first or second month of calculus 2.

      Now some of the production functions those are often a black box.

      In almost anything with a fenomenological coeficient, that coeficient is doing a lot of work .

      • structuralize_this [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Yeah yeah yeah, but literally zero people in econ can do the basic derivation of compound interest. Its like, "how did this get here"? Oh, i just use this formula in excel.

        Then in the same breadth they talk about asset pricing by drawing two diagonal lines, when all the model shit is like non-closed-form pde's that only have approximations.

        • keepcarrot [she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          idk how much you are exaggerating, but as far as calculus goes that's pretty easy (no shade on comrades who are bad at maths).

          • Farman [any]
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Americans realized that the more calculus requierments a course had the harder it was for students to pass it. So a while ago they purged calculus requierments from a lot of econ an phisics courses. Im not american but i used to hoard textbooks in pdf and american college level ones practically have no calculus in them.

            • structuralize_this [none/use name]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Correct. There is no math in a business/econ degree.

              At most colleges/universities, if you have calc 1, you can take any econ class you want as a "skip-ahead" prerequisite.

          • structuralize_this [none/use name]
            ·
            1 year ago

            Agree. If you do math, the compounding interest formula is an easy derivation. But most econ degrees have like "business math" and nothing beyond algebra. But they learn to solved "complex" problems like this:

            If you have 6 workers, and each worker earns $10/hr and can produced two widgets an hour and your product sells for $12, what is the total surplus value extracted from your labor force?

            Answer: $84/hr

            • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Answer: $84/hr

              See, this is where Econ nerds get all tripped up. Business Bros know that you tell them their IBS "isn't a real disease" and track their time in the shitter, then don't pay them and fire them. Mathematically, very few of them will sue you, so you come out ahead every time.

              • structuralize_this [none/use name]
                ·
                1 year ago

                Lmao. "Mathematically". Do they even think about it probablistically, or is daddy enough of a scum fuck that failchild just thinks they're invincible?

                Econ is the "formal" study of exploitation. Business Bros is the implementation. Theory vs. practice.

                The #1 thing somebody learns in MBA school is that it's always better to break the law when the fine is less than the benefit. That's algebra 1 baby!

        • Farman [any]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Fair enough. Worse is tyhat often those lines are suposedly concave or convex acording to the model but are straigth in the diagram.

  • Sen_Jen [they/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    I study economics and the majority of the maths in it is purely hypothetical, and can't be used in the real world at all.

    Consumer price index? Makes sense, it shows how expensive things are now compared to last year. That's based on the real world

    Supply and demand? The basis of Keynesian economics? How the fuck are you supposed to measure demand? How do you find the equilibrium where supply equals demand? The answer is that you produce a bunch of shit and see how much of it sells. "Demand" isn't a real thing like supply is, "demand" is purely based on feelings, on what people think they need and/or can afford, so it's not quantifiable at all

    This is why Marxism really changed my view on economics, because it purely focuses on the realm of real, measurable things, not vague concepts like "demand" and "risk".

    • MalarchoBidenism [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Obligatory "Paul Cockshott is a dipshit" but this section in How the World Works where he shits on the "math" in neoclassical economics really stuck with me:

      spoiler

      If you had an economics course at school or college, classical theory is unlikely to be the theory you were taught. Instead you would have been taught the neoclassical theory that was developed in the late nineteenth century by writers like Jevons or Marshall. It is arguable that neoclassical theory gained its popularity because the classical theory, having by then been adopted by socialist writers, had a rather disreputable image in polite society. The neoclassical theory appeared considerably more sophisticated. It was more mathematical and had a scientific feel.34 Its plausibility for young students is enhanced by a beguiling use of diagrams. For those of you who did not take an economics course, figure 3.8 is what millions of students have been given as the theory of price.

      There are two lines, sometimes drawn slightly curved: one is called the supply function, the other the demand function. The demand function rests on the commonsense notion that if something is cheap, people will buy more of it, so it slopes down. Teachers have little difficulty getting this idea accross to their class.

      The other line, the supply function, is shown sloping the other way. What it purports to show is that as more is supplied, the cost of each item goes up. Teachers have more difficulty with this, as common knowledge and experience will have taught students that the reverse is the case: as industries ramp up production they find they can produce more efficiently and supply the output at a lower cost. Such objections provoke some hand waving at the blackboard as well as excuses.35

      The great thing about a classic diagram is that it is both memorable and intuitively understandable. If you can present math this way you leverage the processing ability of our visual cortex to understand it. That is why Venn diagrams are so much easier for students to grasp than axiomatic set theory [Lakoff and Nunez, 2001]. Our brains tell us that if it looks right, it not only is right, but it is real. So having seen the diagrams, students come out thinking that supply and demand functions are real things—after all, they have seen them. Not only that, one can see that the intersection of these functions exactly predicts both the quantity of the commodity sold q, and its price p.

      Had the theory been presented entirely in algebraic form it would be more confusing, less appealing, and more subject to critical analysis. I will demonstrate that once you convert it to algebraic notation it is evident that the theory violates two cardinal principles of the scientific method. Its science feel is faked.

      “Occam’s razor” is the principle widely credited to the monk William of Ockham in the Middle Ages. He is supposed to have said that in an explanation “frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora” [Adams, 1987], “it is futile to explain with many things what can be done with fewer.” His dictum has been widely adopted by scientists who interpret it to mean that when constructing a hypothesis you should keep it simple.36

      Why is this a good principle for science?

      Beyond philosophical beliefs that the laws of nature are simple and elegant, there are pragmatic reasons why sticking to Occam’s razor is good scientific practice. The main one is that if you make your theory complicated enough you can make it fit any particular set of observations, but this is at a cost of loss of generality of predictive ability. A famous example is the way that the Greek geocentric theory of astronomy was extended by adding epicycles to account for the retrograde apparent movement of Mars.37 Ptolemy was able to get good predictions, something that classical economists signally fail to do, but he got them at the cost of a theory with little inner logic, and one that we now know was totally inside out.

      The neoclassical supply and demand theory does multiply entities without cause. Each of the functions has at least two parameters specifying its slope and position.38 But the real observed data only has two parameters: a price and quantity on a particular day. So the theory attempts to explain two numbers and in the process introduces four new numbers—entities lacking necessity.

      For Ptolemy the epicyclic complexity brought precision in predicting planetary motion, and in the sense that there were no more epicycles than was necessary to achieve that precision, Ptolemy’s theory obeyed Occam’s razor. But the profligacy with which the economists strew free variables around, brings the opposite effect. Their price theory is underdetermined and makes no testable predictions at all.

      Testability is another cornerstone of the scientific method. A causal theory should be testable to see if it is true. For that to work, the entities you use have to be measurable. But what testable predictions does the neoclassical theory make about the structure of industrial prices in, for example, the U.S. economy?

      It can make none, since the supply and demand functions for the various commodities are not only contingently unknown, but are in principle unknowable. The theory says that the two functions uniquely define the price and quantity that will be sold on a particular day, but there are infinitely many pairs of lines that could be drawn so as to intersect at the point (q, p) in figure 3.8. It is no good trying to look at how the prices and quantities sold vary from day to day, since the theory itself holds than any changes in price or quantity must be brought about by “shifts” in the functions. What this means is that the economics teacher goes to the board with a ruler and draws two more lines intersecting at the new price and quantity. This, the teacher tells the class, is what happens in a real market: prices change because the supply and demand functions move about.

      But splatter any arbitrary set of points on the price-quantity graph, and you can draw intersecting lines through each and every one of them. Let these points be prices on successive days, there could never be a sequence of these price value measurements that could not be explained by suitably shifting a ruler about and drawing pairs of intersecting lines. So the theory is unfalsifiable. It makes no specific operational predictions about prices and quantities. It is true by definition and vacuous by definition. It is not even wrong [Woit, 2002].

      • TrudeauCastroson [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Why's he a dipshit? The excerpt you shared is pretty good, and now I want to read that book.

        Any preconceived notions I should have before reading it?

        • MalarchoBidenism [he/him]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          He's a good Marxian economist, but a transphobe (CW?)

          He's also had takes about how gay marriage furthers the economic divide between men and women, immigrants bring down wages and prostitution is economically unproductive, which, if you're feeling charitable, you could read as value-judgement-free statements about the realities of capitalism, but when combined with the transphobia paint a picture of one weird little guy. What can I say except :ukkk:

          Fortunately his weird reactionary takes don't come up pretty much at all in his work so you should definitely check out How the World Works (and Towards a New Socialism if you haven't)

    • keepcarrot [she/her]
      ·
      1 year ago

      I keep feeling like economics, as a field, doesn't really like doing experiments very much.

      • Sen_Jen [they/them]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Modern economics is basically just people looking at capitalism and trying to retroactively justify it

        • keepcarrot [she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          I've long said economics is often just ad copy for capitalism.

  • ClimateChangeAnxiety [he/him, they/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    My uni classifies Econ as a STEM field.

    Economics is as much a STEM field as palm reading and astrology, and honestly palm reading and astrology have a better track record of predicting future events.

    • ClimateChangeAnxiety [he/him, they/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Even calling it a social science gives it too much credit, that puts it on the level with historians and anthropologists.

      Econ should be grouped with things like astrology and palm reading.

    • AHopeOnceMore [he/him]B
      ·
      1 year ago

      It isn't even a social science. It shies away from developing testable theories and its theoretical bases are simply pro-capotal philosophy.

  • supdog [e/em/eir,ey/em]
    ·
    1 year ago

    I enjoyed econ and I see no reason to argue with it but like the problem is, ok they have the chapter on market failures. Like what if market failures are HUGE in scale? You know there's the one chapter and then they move "ok but the rest of this is true....". What if market failures are MOST of the story? The textbook should be 95% market failure and 5% equilibrium stuff.

    • DoubleShot [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is why Marx's Capital is far and away the best explanation of capitalism that's ever been written. I genuinely think even people who are pro-capitalism should read it if they really want to understand how capitalism works.

      Bourgeois economics has no interest in scratching beneath the surface of things. To them, capitalism is the status quo and many of them think it's simply the way the world works and has always worked. I have yet to see a bourgeois economist ever concern themselves with understanding, for example, really why market failures actually exist or how pervasive they are.

      • FakeNewsForDogs [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Michael Hudson makes the point that’s it not even just capitalism that economics departments don’t question anymore, but also specifically neoliberal economics. All the old timers like Adam smith, Ricardo, etc we’re concerned about keeping markets free from domination by rentier interests so that they’d be more productive. But they apparently got around that by just scrapping any study of the history of economic thought in Econ departments altogether. The term “Free market” has essentially been retconned to mean free FOR rentier exploitation, rather than free FROM it.

      • IceWallowCum [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        why market failures actually exist

        It tends to be pinned onto a very specific group of people or on outside situations that "can't be controlled". Funny enough, they NEVER successfully predict this stuff happening, and the "rebuilding" they do is usually the worst case scenario

  • plinky [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Math is not bullshit, underlying models are where ideology lies.

    Oh my model describes ideal psychopath, who will sell their mom if it exceeds profits from their potential inheritance, I’m very well adjusted individual btw.

  • Fatdork1 [none/use name]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Econ is one of the worst academic subjects and as social of a social science you can get. Sure all the math equations make sense to them they made them up. Congrats on having your rules you make up follow logically together. You're like a fantasy writer now. Just change the rules you fking knobs this ain't physics.

  • CatEars420 [they/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    There's a great :RIchard-D-Wolff: line where he says something like

    Business majors were created because the econ majors didn't understand the economy

    • Farman [any]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Id add business mayors are also bullshit meant to repriduce a class. It is operations research that is more or less the real dicipline.

  • DoubleShot [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    I mostly agree, the problem is the math and theory used in econ PhD programs is fairly complex so when you try and argue this point the economists just say "well you just say that because you don't understand all the math that goes into it".

    What I would love is for Marxists with some real high-level knowledge of mathematics (I'm pretty sure we even have some comrades here like that) to dissect a PhD level econ theory textbook and criticise it.

    • Philosoraptor [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      I mean, the problem isn't the mathematics itself--it's not like they're making mistakes in solving equations or something like that--but the foundational assumptions behind the mathematical models. Virtually all economists will admit, when pressed, that their models only describe highly idealized systems that resemble the real world only if you take on board a set of very suspect assumptions that we actually have good reason to think are false (or at least true only in extremely limited edge cases). This wouldn't be useless exactly--in the same way that equations about the behavior of frictionless physical systems aren't useless--if it weren't for the fact that most of the time, most economists seem to conveniently forget about those simplifying assumptions and recommend policy as if their models are isomorphic to real world systems in all the relevant ways. There's a kind of pervasive amnesia in the discipline about the relationship between the map and the territory, and they end up making pronouncements (and, worse, policy recommendations) based on models that they know are deficient in pretty serious ways.

      There's another pretty serious foundational problem involving value theory and system individuation concerns--the way the models are structured reflects some fairly hefty evaluative choices about what's important, what sorts of states should be thought of as relevantly different from one another, and so on--that's wrapped up with this one, but it's in the same family of concerns. At bottom, the big problem with the field is that they reify their own models in super suspect ways, and don't always seem cognizant of the difference between "here's a set of simplifying assumptions to make this problem tractable; we can learn some things from looking at this idealization, but have to remember it is different from the real world in significant ways" and "this is a good model that actually reflects the world."

  • came_apart_at_Kmart [he/him, comrade/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    i did this interdisciplinary thing for my B.S. between that and AP shit in high school and some macro i took during my initial false start at college, i took a solid amount of econ classes, including upper division stuff.

    the only value i got as a human trying to live and work in this world, besides understanding what the machine wants us to believe, is the coursework i did on managerial principles/accounting and some non-profit managerial economics, which the instructor made sure to instill in us that non-profits (outside of very specific cases) could not be managed like for profit organizations, that it was a very different skillset and required a deeper understanding of concepts that do not conform to the economic model (public goods, altruism, etc). it was super interesting and absolutely gave me a leg up in understanding how non profits work/fail/exploit or occasionally reform out of dysfunction and succeed. and i can push back hard when douchebags try to cowboy some cash strapped org by saying "this needs to be run like a business", because no. this is america, jack, if it could be a business, it would be a business.