I really hate this debate. Radlibs thinking harassing streamers is activism, chuds thinking this nonsense is a good reason to hate trans people.
Both sides are acting like complete morons. Every take I hear is dumber than the last.
I can't believe people on this site also seem to think "boycotting" this game is a thing that could work, or has ever worked. "Voting with your wallet" is the most liberal type of activism there is. It's completely braindead. You might as well harass people over their carbon footprint.
There is no "harassment". Lgbt people levelling criticism at someone is not harassment.
Pikamee didn't quit over this either. She had been planning to quit since early January and had confided in friends about it. Come on, you know better than to let the far-right dictate their false narrative to you. Everything they say is twisted and contorted to benefit them to the maximum amount.
Reject the "harassment" narrative and this Pikamee shit is 100% false. She cancelled Hogwarts due to the criticism yes, the quit is unrelated and the fash are just using its proximity to the cancellation as a weapon even though it's false.
I'm not letting the far right dictate the narrative.
You telling me that it was just "LGBT people leveling criticism" is ridiculous. You know full well how vicious twitter activists can get when they declare someone "deserving" of their anger.
Like yeah, sure, if we pretend that there was no harassment then it really wasn't that bad. If we just make up our own reality we can conclude whatever we want.
There is a good faith discussion to be had about the morality of pressuring public figures into not publicly consuming products made under unethical circumstances by unethical people. But telling me to "reject the harassment narrative" is absurd and frankly concerning.
It was in fact just lgbt people levelling criticism at her. This was then followed up by the fash from pol and other places jumping on board and pretending to be lgbt people while sending death threats. There are absolutely no normal people sending death threats over hogwarts legacy, it is bullshit, it is made up, it is not "harrassment" coming from lgbt people.
telling me to “reject the harassment narrative” is absurd and frankly concerning
I'm telling you exactly what I know as a person in the thick of this. I'm not giving you an opinion, this is fact. The harassment narrative is a far-right invention with almost no relation to reality, after it backfired on them during the Girlfriend Reviews lies they switched to actually faking harassment to back up their bullshit narrative.
Pikamee didn't even quit over terf game shit, Pikamee planned this months ago as confirmed by Pomu here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5coQfT9IM&t=9067s
This was then followed up by the fash from pol and other places jumping on board and pretending to be lgbt people while sending death threats.
Yeah and it was antifa storming the capitol on Jan 6th.
This is absolutely bizarre. How is it this inconceivable to you that people on your side might have done something bad? We created shit lists for streamers who played the game. We mocked them when they complained about harassment. And now you're telling me that if the streamers got harassed, it couldn't have possibly been LGBT people? It couldn't have possibly been our side, we would never?
We spent the last month justifying bullying them. People are doing it in this fucking thread. I cannot believe this rhetoric.
It is a massive waste of my time talking to you about this. Your mind is made up and you are wholly bought into the idea that lgbt people have been going around slinging death threats and slurs at streamers over a videogame.
Girlfriend Reviews: No actual harassment. Literally no crying either. Reported as harassment and being brought to tears, narrative created by literal fascists.
Silvervale: Criticised. Literally public screenshots of fash saying to go pretend to be lgbt and harass her. None of which were reported. Blamed on lgbt people as harassing her.
Pikamee: Received death threats from pol and fascists after lgbt people calmly said "don't do that" and explained to her in detail how JK was a terf blah blah blah. Literally all reported as harassment. Then the "she quit because she was harassed" narrative was also invented by the fash.
Other streamers: Literally only received "I'm disappointed in you" types of messages.
On the other side of the fence, Froot on the other hand received massive amounts of actual hatespeech and harassment for not playing the game. The real harassment here is being generated by fascists, not by lgbt people.
These are the facts if you list them out. You can buy into whatever you want, I don't give a shit. But you're wrong.
It is a massive waste of my time talking to you about this. Your mind is made up and you are wholly bought into the idea that lgbt people have been going around slinging death threats and slurs at streamers over a videogame.
I'll try to explain my point of view here.
The idea of "Our side was only doing normal, sensible things, everything bad was done by the enemy side" really rubs me the wrong way and I treat anything reminding me of this with extreme skepticism. It's the exact mindset that leads libs to believe Russia blew up the Nordstream pipeline.
I fully believe that 4chan was participating in the harassment, but to blame them for everything bad that happened just cannot be right. There was way too much drama on the left about the whole thing for it to have just been fash larping as LGBT people.
There is indeed no point arguing, I have no way of knowing how much of the harassment was larping 4channers and how much of it was overzealous twitter activists. Maybe it was 50% 4chan, maybe 90%, I have no idea.
But don't call me a fucking fed because I criticize our own side. I don't value loyalty over reality.
I fully believe that 4chan was participating in the harassment, but to blame them for everything bad that happened just cannot be right. There was way too much drama on the left about the whole thing for it to have just been fash larping as LGBT people.
Show me real harassment from actual confirmable lgbt people then. It should be easy.
I have been modding GCJ throughout this whole thing. Banning thousands of fuckwits. And dealing with every single piece of information about this. I have not been able to confirm a single one. I've seen literally nothing that can be confirmed from the lgbt side. I have however seen a now gone pol thread that brigaded GCJ and silvervale as well as mentioning to use livestreamfails to amplify. A number of fash subreddits that brigaded us had discussion about manipulating things too.
This event is currently the center of the culture war for the fash and they view the vtuber audiences as another potential gamergate waiting to happen.
Looking at this, maybe I underestimated the right-wing influence in the whole thing.
I can't provide counter-examples. If you have more information about this event being the center of the culture war, I'd be very interested in reading more. Perhaps I did indeed get tricked because of my personal emotional attachment to the v-tuber scene.
Edit: i will have you know that typing this out was very painful
I mean, it's been the center of the culture war because it's harry potter and it hasn't received a game in decades and the fash see trans people as the primary tool of generating reaction right now.
I'm glad you can see through it. Like, really think about it. You're a hexbear so you KNOW that we are pretty cool and ok with bullying libs, but ask yourself if anyone here has advocated bullying streamers over this. This site is the MOST likely to advocate for actual harassment. But it's just not beneficial, it has only negatives, and there's really no need to bully people when "this is very disappointing" is perfectly adequate.
The average lgbt person isn't doing any harassment, and even the radicals like us are not doing any harassment. So who the fuck is?
Nobody. It's the fascists.
This whole thing started with calling mild criticism "harassment" to begin with. Girlfriend Reviews was not harassed but it was presented as such and claimed she was brought to tears, no such thing happened whatsoever, and that was the starting point from which the fascist then went on to do real harassment in the knock-on false flags.
I think it's also notable that this "harassment" only occurs to women. Where are the male streamers getting harassed? If lgbt people were doing this the target wouldn't be gendered. The fash can not help telling on themselves by only doing this to women.
Silvervale and Froot are very interesting to compare and contrast with Pikamee. You'd expect them to have similar audiences, both working for Vshojo, so if we are imagining no bad actors isn't it weird they got death threats either way? It's also worth noting PIkamee probably appeals the most to devoted 4chan types. being japanese and looking and sounding youthful, with a bit less idol contrivance than hololive streamers without the constant perversion and dirty language of Vshojo. She probably has some trans viewers, but honestly they're really not the majority of her audience. Not even enough to be a sizeable percentage like the weird Chinese nationalists that harassed Aloe and Coco two years ago. I realise I'm showing I know waaaay to much about vtuber culture, but with this context it become clear that, for pikamee to receive this much harassment, it cannot be from lgbtq people primarily.
We've literally seen a pol thread where they discussed doing this. There are serious quantities of bad actors involved, absolutely massive numbers.
This event is currently the center of the culture war for the fash and they view the vtuber audiences as another potential gamergate waiting to happen. It is extremely dangerous to buy into their bullshit, they want to turn the entire vtuber audience into anti-lgbt reactionaries in the same way they riled up gamers into anti-feminism via gamergate.
They have been looking for a catalyst to do this with the vtuber audiences for a while but have thus far not really managed to generate one.
oh, sorry. Hopefully the fact that vtubers are predominantly women, like actual women and not entirely fictional characters, will stave off a lot of the misogyny which was created in gamergate. Xenophobia will flare up a little. I just don't know if transphobia can catch on in quite the same way because watching vtubers just doesn't allow as much time for talking during matches and using slurs as gaming. But we will see.
This is one of the things that shows the bad actors aren't lgbt actually. All the targets of this harassment are women. You don't see male streamers presented as getting "attacked", only mildly criticised.
Vtubers are targeted partly because they seem like soft targets, partly because they can't fight back easily due to the insecurity of their jobs tied to the companies they work for (can't make a mistake that brings them into disrepute) and partly because they have absolutely zero respect for them.
i mean, I'm not here saying a boycott's gonna work but at the same time if I find out someone's bought and played the game I AM going to lose respect for them and make that known - conflating that with radlib activism is disingenuous
It's certainly been an event. I understand not wanting to play it because of JK Rowling and what she does, but the aggressive tactics to get fence-sitters is a lost cause imo. Average person really doesn't have much of a clue and I see it in my younger relatives that already played and beat the game spoiler-free. They aren't really online outside of watching TikToks of dancing animals or checking Instagram DM's. Everyone knows telling teenagers not to do something will make them do it.
People have moved on anyway. Atomic Hearts is the new fad and the protests for that are falling on deaf ears too. Haven't heard a single peep about its controversies outside of internet spaces.
yeah they work when they're in support of strikes or when they're done at the international level like was done to apartheid south africa and should be done to occupied palestine.
Probably it's because Rowling is the biggest transphobe ( and we know how her views affected her work) but it's discussed like this is the one specific game where an evil person profits. But I think it's not the only case
Tech companies are evil, the 30% Microsoft gets from every Xbox game sale will cause harm. Saudi Arabia owns 8% of Nintendo so in a similar sense to Hogwarts, Mario Kart sales going strong supports the war in Yemen. And I've just assumed major shareholders in general are chud dipshits
People shouldn't be playing it in any case since the story and gameplay suck
it's definitely because rowling is such a public and active piece of shit. I'm sure phil spencer or whoever else all have shit politics by our standards but they're not standing up for transphobia all the fucking time or spent a shitton of money to fight Scottish independence.
I really hate this debate. Radlibs thinking harassing streamers is activism, chuds thinking this nonsense is a good reason to hate trans people.
Both sides are acting like complete morons. Every take I hear is dumber than the last.
I can't believe people on this site also seem to think "boycotting" this game is a thing that could work, or has ever worked. "Voting with your wallet" is the most liberal type of activism there is. It's completely braindead. You might as well harass people over their carbon footprint.
There is no "harassment". Lgbt people levelling criticism at someone is not harassment.
Pikamee didn't quit over this either. She had been planning to quit since early January and had confided in friends about it. Come on, you know better than to let the far-right dictate their false narrative to you. Everything they say is twisted and contorted to benefit them to the maximum amount.
Reject the "harassment" narrative and this Pikamee shit is 100% false. She cancelled Hogwarts due to the criticism yes, the quit is unrelated and the fash are just using its proximity to the cancellation as a weapon even though it's false.
I'm not letting the far right dictate the narrative.
You telling me that it was just "LGBT people leveling criticism" is ridiculous. You know full well how vicious twitter activists can get when they declare someone "deserving" of their anger.
Like yeah, sure, if we pretend that there was no harassment then it really wasn't that bad. If we just make up our own reality we can conclude whatever we want.
There is a good faith discussion to be had about the morality of pressuring public figures into not publicly consuming products made under unethical circumstances by unethical people. But telling me to "reject the harassment narrative" is absurd and frankly concerning.
It was in fact just lgbt people levelling criticism at her. This was then followed up by the fash from pol and other places jumping on board and pretending to be lgbt people while sending death threats. There are absolutely no normal people sending death threats over hogwarts legacy, it is bullshit, it is made up, it is not "harrassment" coming from lgbt people.
I'm telling you exactly what I know as a person in the thick of this. I'm not giving you an opinion, this is fact. The harassment narrative is a far-right invention with almost no relation to reality, after it backfired on them during the Girlfriend Reviews lies they switched to actually faking harassment to back up their bullshit narrative.
Pikamee didn't even quit over terf game shit, Pikamee planned this months ago as confirmed by Pomu here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5coQfT9IM&t=9067s
Yeah and it was antifa storming the capitol on Jan 6th.
This is absolutely bizarre. How is it this inconceivable to you that people on your side might have done something bad? We created shit lists for streamers who played the game. We mocked them when they complained about harassment. And now you're telling me that if the streamers got harassed, it couldn't have possibly been LGBT people? It couldn't have possibly been our side, we would never?
We spent the last month justifying bullying them. People are doing it in this fucking thread. I cannot believe this rhetoric.
:fedposting:
It is a massive waste of my time talking to you about this. Your mind is made up and you are wholly bought into the idea that lgbt people have been going around slinging death threats and slurs at streamers over a videogame.
Girlfriend Reviews: No actual harassment. Literally no crying either. Reported as harassment and being brought to tears, narrative created by literal fascists.
Silvervale: Criticised. Literally public screenshots of fash saying to go pretend to be lgbt and harass her. None of which were reported. Blamed on lgbt people as harassing her.
Pikamee: Received death threats from pol and fascists after lgbt people calmly said "don't do that" and explained to her in detail how JK was a terf blah blah blah. Literally all reported as harassment. Then the "she quit because she was harassed" narrative was also invented by the fash.
Other streamers: Literally only received "I'm disappointed in you" types of messages.
On the other side of the fence, Froot on the other hand received massive amounts of actual hatespeech and harassment for not playing the game. The real harassment here is being generated by fascists, not by lgbt people.
These are the facts if you list them out. You can buy into whatever you want, I don't give a shit. But you're wrong.
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I'll try to explain my point of view here.
The idea of "Our side was only doing normal, sensible things, everything bad was done by the enemy side" really rubs me the wrong way and I treat anything reminding me of this with extreme skepticism. It's the exact mindset that leads libs to believe Russia blew up the Nordstream pipeline.
I fully believe that 4chan was participating in the harassment, but to blame them for everything bad that happened just cannot be right. There was way too much drama on the left about the whole thing for it to have just been fash larping as LGBT people.
There is indeed no point arguing, I have no way of knowing how much of the harassment was larping 4channers and how much of it was overzealous twitter activists. Maybe it was 50% 4chan, maybe 90%, I have no idea.
But don't call me a fucking fed because I criticize our own side. I don't value loyalty over reality.
Show me real harassment from actual confirmable lgbt people then. It should be easy.
I have been modding GCJ throughout this whole thing. Banning thousands of fuckwits. And dealing with every single piece of information about this. I have not been able to confirm a single one. I've seen literally nothing that can be confirmed from the lgbt side. I have however seen a now gone pol thread that brigaded GCJ and silvervale as well as mentioning to use livestreamfails to amplify. A number of fash subreddits that brigaded us had discussion about manipulating things too.
Hm.
Looking at this, maybe I underestimated the right-wing influence in the whole thing.
I can't provide counter-examples. If you have more information about this event being the center of the culture war, I'd be very interested in reading more. Perhaps I did indeed get tricked because of my personal emotional attachment to the v-tuber scene.
Edit: i will have you know that typing this out was very painful
I mean, it's been the center of the culture war because it's harry potter and it hasn't received a game in decades and the fash see trans people as the primary tool of generating reaction right now.
I'm glad you can see through it. Like, really think about it. You're a hexbear so you KNOW that we are pretty cool and ok with bullying libs, but ask yourself if anyone here has advocated bullying streamers over this. This site is the MOST likely to advocate for actual harassment. But it's just not beneficial, it has only negatives, and there's really no need to bully people when "this is very disappointing" is perfectly adequate.
The average lgbt person isn't doing any harassment, and even the radicals like us are not doing any harassment. So who the fuck is?
Nobody. It's the fascists.
This whole thing started with calling mild criticism "harassment" to begin with. Girlfriend Reviews was not harassed but it was presented as such and claimed she was brought to tears, no such thing happened whatsoever, and that was the starting point from which the fascist then went on to do real harassment in the knock-on false flags.
I think it's also notable that this "harassment" only occurs to women. Where are the male streamers getting harassed? If lgbt people were doing this the target wouldn't be gendered. The fash can not help telling on themselves by only doing this to women.
Silvervale and Froot are very interesting to compare and contrast with Pikamee. You'd expect them to have similar audiences, both working for Vshojo, so if we are imagining no bad actors isn't it weird they got death threats either way? It's also worth noting PIkamee probably appeals the most to devoted 4chan types. being japanese and looking and sounding youthful, with a bit less idol contrivance than hololive streamers without the constant perversion and dirty language of Vshojo. She probably has some trans viewers, but honestly they're really not the majority of her audience. Not even enough to be a sizeable percentage like the weird Chinese nationalists that harassed Aloe and Coco two years ago. I realise I'm showing I know waaaay to much about vtuber culture, but with this context it become clear that, for pikamee to receive this much harassment, it cannot be from lgbtq people primarily.
We've literally seen a pol thread where they discussed doing this. There are serious quantities of bad actors involved, absolutely massive numbers.
This event is currently the center of the culture war for the fash and they view the vtuber audiences as another potential gamergate waiting to happen. It is extremely dangerous to buy into their bullshit, they want to turn the entire vtuber audience into anti-lgbt reactionaries in the same way they riled up gamers into anti-feminism via gamergate.
They have been looking for a catalyst to do this with the vtuber audiences for a while but have thus far not really managed to generate one.
I was agreeing with you.
I know, didn't mean to appear otherwise! Just adding to what you said.
oh, sorry. Hopefully the fact that vtubers are predominantly women, like actual women and not entirely fictional characters, will stave off a lot of the misogyny which was created in gamergate. Xenophobia will flare up a little. I just don't know if transphobia can catch on in quite the same way because watching vtubers just doesn't allow as much time for talking during matches and using slurs as gaming. But we will see.
This is one of the things that shows the bad actors aren't lgbt actually. All the targets of this harassment are women. You don't see male streamers presented as getting "attacked", only mildly criticised.
Vtubers are targeted partly because they seem like soft targets, partly because they can't fight back easily due to the insecurity of their jobs tied to the companies they work for (can't make a mistake that brings them into disrepute) and partly because they have absolutely zero respect for them.
Yeah, the evil trans rights activists are to blame. Where have I heard that one before?
Rando: "I'm looking forward to wizardgame, hbu?"
Attention-payer: "I'm not. Rowling's a shit."
Rando: "WHY ARE YOU SAYING I'M BAD!? U R BOY COT!"
Harassing anime pfp people is always good
deleted by creator
It's really not
usually*
the fuck?
i mean, I'm not here saying a boycott's gonna work but at the same time if I find out someone's bought and played the game I AM going to lose respect for them and make that known - conflating that with radlib activism is disingenuous
Yeah, because you're also in the echo chamber. This is exactly the reason people need to touch some fucking grass.
You can't spend all your time in the circus tent and then complain about how you're surrounded by all these fucking clowns.
It's certainly been an event. I understand not wanting to play it because of JK Rowling and what she does, but the aggressive tactics to get fence-sitters is a lost cause imo. Average person really doesn't have much of a clue and I see it in my younger relatives that already played and beat the game spoiler-free. They aren't really online outside of watching TikToks of dancing animals or checking Instagram DM's. Everyone knows telling teenagers not to do something will make them do it.
People have moved on anyway. Atomic Hearts is the new fad and the protests for that are falling on deaf ears too. Haven't heard a single peep about its controversies outside of internet spaces.
boycotts do work, for certain things. They definitely won't bring about the revolution, but not buying a product can make the product change.
yeah they work when they're in support of strikes or when they're done at the international level like was done to apartheid south africa and should be done to occupied palestine.
yeah I try to avoid looking at any of this stuff. It's just way too toxic
Probably it's because Rowling is the biggest transphobe ( and we know how her views affected her work) but it's discussed like this is the one specific game where an evil person profits. But I think it's not the only case
Tech companies are evil, the 30% Microsoft gets from every Xbox game sale will cause harm. Saudi Arabia owns 8% of Nintendo so in a similar sense to Hogwarts, Mario Kart sales going strong supports the war in Yemen. And I've just assumed major shareholders in general are chud dipshits
People shouldn't be playing it in any case since the story and gameplay suck
it's definitely because rowling is such a public and active piece of shit. I'm sure phil spencer or whoever else all have shit politics by our standards but they're not standing up for transphobia all the fucking time or spent a shitton of money to fight Scottish independence.