I would've thought USSR would've done it by the 70s if not before Amerika, but it's been 60 years since and no one has done it so far. In fact, it's likely it'll be Amerikans who're back on the moon again before anyone else. WTF is going on here?
After the Yanks got it first, the Soviets took a look at their moon program and decided it wasn't worth finishing. IIRC they still didn't have a workable lander design, and their super heavy lifter was the most over-complicated design imaginable, with a dead project leader and four failed test launches in a row. The Soviets decided that their resources would be better spent building the first space station, which they did and technology from which still forms part of the core of the ISS to this day.
Aside from the Soviets, literally every other space program has been playing catchup to the Americans since it started. Worth noting that the reason they're stuck playing catchup is that the US strictly controls any technology that could be used to make ICBMs, so every other western space program has had to reinvent the rocket (and non western ones like China and the DPRK started with purchased Soviet designs).
Lastly, when we stopped building Saturn Vs, something rarely discussed but highly relevant began to happen - our ability to manufacture rockets of that size and complexity degraded. Every time an engineer died or retired, every factory that closed down or old computer that was made obsolete, reduced our capacity to build the moon rocket, and so it would be accurate to say that from about 1980 to today not even the US has had lunar landing capability.
the Soviets took a look at their moon program and decided it wasn’t worth finishing.
lol I feel the same way about the Mars thing, at least short-term (next 100 years) not really worth pursuing. Asteroid mining + space manufacturing are the only space race goals I recognize.
Could you imagine rolling the dice on flying out to Mars in this day and age? "Management would just like you to be aware that they see themselves as the bad guys and they understand how disappointed you must be in them as they cut the funding for the department currently keeping in contact with you while you're in orbit. If you do somehow survive the trip back, please be assured that we would be happy to provide you with a glowing letter of recommendation."
The first moon landings required a a lot of funding in a relatively short period of time, and the US government that was funding it decided it would rather shrink the space budget than the war budget. This time (for the Artemis missions), the budget seems stable and the missions less frequent but longer. Plus, if the next-generation superheavy rockets in development (Starship, Long March 9) actually pan out then the cost should decrease further. In other words, there's been a concerted effort to make the upcoming moon missions sustainable. If this principle is applied to Mars then I could see it happening this century. I'm betting on China though. I don't think a private company can do it.
I’m betting on China though. I don’t think a private company can do it.
I'm betting on China, too. I just think the US being too "End of History"-brained to go out and actually do anything, especially mega projects of any kind.
Rocket technology really peaked in 1970, the NK-33 and the F1 engine are still two of the most efficient rocket engines ever made. They're still using the last few remaining NK-33 engines for the latest Soyuz rockets iirc
It shouldn't but this makes me kind of sad for some reason. Maybe it's that last remaining inner-child dream of space exploration withering
A lot of the recent advances in the American rocket industry is only possible because of the purchase of Russian engines and technology
That's part of the fallout of the moon program too, all those engines with tech American scientists thought was impossible sat in a warehouse for like thirty years before coming out and surprising everyone.
The Indian space agency also worked with the USSR, not sure if they purchased rockets though
Because there's not much up there other than bragging rights
The bragging rights shouldn't be underestimated, though. It's been such a big propaganda W for Amerika and capitalism over the decades, and it has almost no downside.
This poem summarizes my feeling on your question.
A rat done bit my sister Nell. (with Whitey on the moon) Her face and arms began to swell. (and Whitey's on the moon) I can't pay no doctor bill. (but Whitey's on the moon) Ten years from now I'll be payin' still. (while Whitey's on the moon) The man jus' upped my rent las' night. ('cause Whitey's on the moon) No hot water, no toilets, no lights. (but Whitey's on the moon) I wonder why he's uppi' me? ('cause Whitey's on the moon?) I was already payin' 'im fifty a week. (with Whitey on the moon) Taxes takin' my whole damn check, Junkies makin' me a nervous wreck, The price of food is goin' up, An' as if all that shit wasn't enough A rat done bit my sister Nell. (with Whitey on the moon) Her face an' arm began to swell. (but Whitey's on the moon) Was all that money I made las' year (for Whitey on the moon?) How come there ain't no money here? (Hm! Whitey's on the moon) Y'know I jus' 'bout had my fill (of Whitey on the moon) I think I'll sen' these doctor bills, Airmail special (to Whitey on the moon)
The space race during the cold war was much like the first industrial revolution, while it did advance technology and some of the good stuff trickled down to us like GPS and satellites. It also created ICBM’s. Most people, especially those in the global south gained nothing from the space race. It was essentially a dick measuring contest between the two biggest superpowers. The USSR got a lot of firsts, first object in orbit, first man in space, first probes on a couple of planets. These are huge accomplishments and I’m not saying these are bad, just not important if you’re a third world subsistence farmer and your main concern is not starving to death. And the USA beating the USSR to the moon was unexpected but nevertheless impressive, but you got to separate science from politics. A scientific breakthrough might not be good from a political standpoint, seriously do you know how many nazis were involved with the space race on both sides? None of this would have been possible without the slave labor those guys had at their disposal during WW2 to refine their methods and become the leading rocket scientists in the world. The material conditions to create a rocket scientist required a lot of human suffering.
I think the space race died down after the moon landings because the rivalry aspect died down enough for both sides to realize how expensive the space program actually was, they may have had the technology to go to the moon but there was nothing on the moon worth mining to continue going there. If anyone won the space race it was humanity because it didn’t result in us nuking ourselves and we got some stuff out of it. Nowadays the space race is heating up again because the capitalists have a commercial interest in going up there again, and smaller countries like China and India are poking their noses into it so the USA has to show it got big dick energy, the Artemis program is basically the USA taking a bunch of viagra to show that its still virile, here’s hoping the erection lasts for more than four hours and the old fuck croaks.
Firstly, amazing poem. Thanks for sharing!
I think it articulates the unsaid but probably expected benefit of "going to the moon". It gave people the idea that "look at what the capitalist americans did!" If they can do this, they can do anything. And no one else being able to replicate it meant that the Amerikans got to coast off of that success for a long, long time. Maybe if the USSR could claim the feat too they could've staved off their collpase, idk. It's doubtful, but not doing it (for monetary reasons or whatever else) clearly didn't help.
I think its the same reason boomers almost eradicated polio and got rid of viruela but in our generation covid runs rampant.
Society only has resources for that sort of thing while the rate of profit is high enough. After it reaches a certain point all the profits are already earmarked inorder to keep the system going.
Landing people on the moon was a flex, and arguably a tremendous amount of wasted resources considering what we got out of it. It simply costs way too much to send people up there, and keep them alive, and bring them back if all you're doing is taking soil samples and moon rock spiders back to earth. This can just as easily be done by non-crewed missions (which there have been a couple in the last 20 years)
As I mentioned in another comment, I think underestimating the power of the flex is dangerous. The flex allowed Amerika to proclaim itself and capitalism as totally poggers and awesometacular for decades. In marxist terms, it might be non-productive labor, but it facilitated a lot of productive labor otherwise (in increasing people interested in space and science and nasa at the very fucking least).
Affording space exploration is pretty dependent on the spoils of empire, and justifying it to a population whose standard of living was declining by that point would have been pretty hard for the Soviets. I'm not particularly read up on what the Soviet intentions were after the US' moon landing in '69, but I know Brezhnev was previously in charge of their space program and probably had a pretty good grasp of how much commitment would be required and whether those resources were better used dealing with the immediate threats.
In marxist terms, it might be non-productive labor
I'd describe it as closer to pure research. No immediate applications, but plenty of useful technologies got their start in the space race.
This can just as easily be done by non-crewed missions (which there have been a couple in the last 20 years)
mostly from the CNSA (we totally need their logo for an emoji)
Yeah, as far as other projects there are many countries who have been doing tech demos or orbital projects like India, Japan, UAE, S Korea, Italy, etc. Cool stuff is still happening, but planting another flag on the moon isn't really that high on anyone's list of priorities.
Without the space race the government has no reason to bother funding another moon mission
I kinda think that this century’s space program is mostly the pet project of billionaires rather than the military.
Hey you make it a regular thing and NASA might come up with an effective energy source that isn't oil.
You might start mining space which wrecks manufactured scarcity and resource hording.
You might get disruptive leaps in tech that will make obsolete current tech that hasn't been fully milked of potential profits yet.
That makes :porky-scared-flipped:
I said this to someone else but I'll make this its own comment:
a manned moon mission is something nobody else has done because it’s largely dangerous and pointless. Why endanger human astronauts with a manned moon mission when you can just keep sending rovers there that are even better at collecting samples without contaminating the environment with human bacteria, etc?
Manned missions are kinda reckless. Until we’re actually trying to colonize planets, astronauts are for repairing space stations. Even if we were trying to build habitations on other surfaces, we would still send equipment first and people last.
It was an extension of the nuclear missile program and a side project of that Nazi, Von Braun that America sheltered after the war. It was literally just a passion project.
Apart from the US of the 60s and 70s, which was still an industrial powerhouse, nobody had the resources and capacity to keep churning out these expensive space projects, and that included the USSR.
Except the USSR beat the USA to the first in literally every aspect of the space race except for a manned moon mission. The truth is a manned moon mission is something nobody else has done because it's largely dangerous and pointless. Why endanger human astronauts with a manned moon mission when you can just keep sending rovers there that are even better at collecting samples without contaminating the environment with human bacteria, etc?
Manned missions are kinda reckless. Until we're actually trying to colonize planets, astronauts are for repairing space stations. Even if we were trying to build habitations on other surfaces, we would still send equipment first and people last.
Short answer: the corporate/millionaire tax rate was much higher
and everything was less privatized and deregulated. The remnants of FDR's reforms and war economy meant you could marshall the productive forces of the US economy in a sort of Keynesian way that is impossible these days.
Most places could do. We can't it today. We probably couldn't do it if we wanted to though.
China could, they just don't wanna spend that much money to piss us off
