While I understand many of my comrades- especially my trans, LGBTQ, or Neurodivergent comrades- have had bad (to put it VERY mildly) experiences with certain forms of Christianity it is rather disappointing and disturbing that there are comrades in this thread who are willing to completely disregard the many Christian socialists that also exist in AES countries, or the many religious socialists that exist in general. I’m also rather perturbed by the anti-theist attitude I’m seeing from my comrades, as I feel it is a reactionary analysis of the true enemy that corrupts every ideology, that being capitalism.
Religions are human institutions with human flaws and human strengths, all striving to achieve or promote values that go beyond the material world and I think that’s pretty fucking great considering how soulless and materialist (in the non-Marxist sense) capitalism is. Religions generally have core values that often resonate with us, and they may even provide for us ways to strengthen our moral compasses as well as provide spaces for wisdom and compassion in our fight against the enemy.
Yes, they can be corrupted by wicked men and capitalistic powers, but so can every other ideology ever. Let’s try not to alienate potential comrades by completely dismissing Christianity or any religion (as if they were all monoliths) as “evil” or “a death cult”.
I think this minimizes the extent to which Christianity in particular has served as capitalism's handmaid, making it very much the enemy. Yeah, sure, everyone's read the lines about the camel going through the eye of the needle, but all it takes is a look at how the various churches have behaved over the centuries. The gnostics tried to take that shit seriously and look at what the rest of Christianity did to them.
Any belief system that postulates the existence of a deity that condemns people who don't believe in him to an eternity in a lake of fire is, at best, an impediment to universal socialism.
The idea that most Christian sects or even the people who are in then believe non-believers get sent to hell is an incredibly erroneous statement my friend.
I’m not sure what your end goal would be for fellow Christian socialists but I’m not sure I’d want you at any levers of power if you’re implying what I think you’re implying.
If you and other leftists here don’t want even the best of Christians around then I’m thoroughly ashamed to be apart of this community. The Christian socialist goal has partially been to rehabilitate a faith followed by BILLIONS so that it is compatible with a kinder, socialist and Christlike world view. I’m not trying to downplay the fact that the crimes of capitalism are done in part by Christians or in the mask of Christianity but for you to condemn us ALL is not going to make us feel like we have a place here too.
The idea that most Christian sects or even the people who are in then believe non-believers get sent to hell is an incredibly erroneous statement my friend.
I don't know how to respond to this in a way that doesn't come across as disrespectful or snarky, so I'll just ask for any remotely credible source that backs up what you're asserting here.
I’m not sure what your end goal would be for fellow Christian socialists but I’m not sure I’d want you at any levers of power if you’re implying what I think you’re implying.
:bait: What I'm implying is that you do some self-crit and read some theory.
The Christian socialist goal has partially been to rehabilitate a faith followed by BILLIONS so that it is compatible with a kinder, socialist and Christlike world view.
What's the value added versus just being a kinder, socialist atheist? To take an example, in your original comment, you said "all striving to achieve or promote values that go beyond the material world" - this isn't a Marxist attitude. The material world is what we have and all that we can address. Christian eschatology has long served as a useful distraction for the ruling class. What will be left when all the incompatible elements of Christianity are pared away?
I’m not trying to downplay the fact that the crimes of capitalism are done in part by Christians or in the mask of Christianity but for you to condemn us ALL is not going to make us feel like we have a place here too
I think that's exactly what you are doing, though. See: "while I understand many of my comrades- especially my trans, LGBTQ, or Neurodivergent comrades- have had bad (to put it VERY mildly) experiences with certain forms of Christianity". I'm not the Grand Arbiter of Who's Socialist and can't include or exclude you in the movement, but if being asked to engage with the history of your own religion and socialism's intellectual foundation in atheism makes you feel excluded, I feel like you have some stuff to work out on your own.
Ok let’s engage with this take then: Christianity bad; what do you want people to do? Do you want billions of people to abandon it?
What if they don’t want to do that? Are you going to re-educate them? They’re not going to want that either. You want to wipe us out? Right? That’s the end goal that you want if you think we’re all scum my guy.
And so fucking what if I have viewpoints that go beyond socialism? So what if maybe I think there’s a world beyond this? Maybe that’s FINE because informs me that I’ll be fucking judged for how I act in this life and that the right thing to do is fight capitalism in any form that it fucking takes religious or not.
What is the fucking end goal of communism if people can enjoy or explore things that aren’t trying to feed themselves? People WILL have religions and spiritual beliefs, people WILL HAVE PHILOSOPHIES that aren’t purely Marxist and maybe that isn’t always a bad thing.
All I’m asking of you is what you want Christians to do; they’re not going to lay down and have thousands of years of tradition be destroyed.
Ok let’s engage with this take then: Christianity Capitalism bad; what do you want people to do? Do you want billions of people to abandon it? What if they don’t want to do that? Are you going to re-educate them? They’re not going to want that either. You want to wipe us out? Right? That’s the end goal that you want if you think we’re all scum my guy.
All I’m asking of you is what you want Christians Capitalists to do; they’re not going to lay down and have thousands of years of tradition be destroyed.
This rhetoric is so tedious and I hope this illustrates why.
And so fucking what if I have viewpoints that go beyond socialism?
As a person it doesn't matter, but this conversation was explicitly in the context of the intersection between Christianity and socialism so I don't get why you're angry that I'm pointing out incompatibilities between Christianity and socialism.
I’ll be fucking judged for how I act in this life
This is pretty fundamental to the issue, I'd think. Why would I want to believe that there's an omnipotent, omniscient deity out there whose morality, at least as it manifests in the book people who believe in him claim is central to that belief, is probably alien to my own. Why do so many of this teaching's followers believe that this judgment gives them the right to treat people who are perceived to be on the wrong side of it as inferiors?
What is the fucking end goal of communism if people can enjoy or explore things that aren’t trying to feed themselves? People WILL have religions and spiritual beliefs, people WILL HAVE PHILOSOPHIES that aren’t purely Marxist and maybe that isn’t always a bad thing.
You're moving the goalposts. We're not discussing the benefit of religion, spiritual beliefs, and philosophies (which are not things that deserve to be lumped together, imho) in the broad sense, we're discussing a specific religious belief.
While I understand many of my comrades- especially my trans, LGBTQ, or Neurodivergent comrades- have had bad (to put it VERY mildly) experiences with certain forms of Christianity it is rather disappointing and disturbing that there are comrades in this thread who are willing to completely disregard the many Christian socialists that also exist in AES countries, or the many religious socialists that exist in general. I’m also rather perturbed by the anti-theist attitude I’m seeing from my comrades, as I feel it is a reactionary analysis of the true enemy that corrupts every ideology, that being capitalism.
Religions are human institutions with human flaws and human strengths, all striving to achieve or promote values that go beyond the material world and I think that’s pretty fucking great considering how soulless and materialist (in the non-Marxist sense) capitalism is. Religions generally have core values that often resonate with us, and they may even provide for us ways to strengthen our moral compasses as well as provide spaces for wisdom and compassion in our fight against the enemy.
Yes, they can be corrupted by wicked men and capitalistic powers, but so can every other ideology ever. Let’s try not to alienate potential comrades by completely dismissing Christianity or any religion (as if they were all monoliths) as “evil” or “a death cult”.
I think this minimizes the extent to which Christianity in particular has served as capitalism's handmaid, making it very much the enemy. Yeah, sure, everyone's read the lines about the camel going through the eye of the needle, but all it takes is a look at how the various churches have behaved over the centuries. The gnostics tried to take that shit seriously and look at what the rest of Christianity did to them.
Any belief system that postulates the existence of a deity that condemns people who don't believe in him to an eternity in a lake of fire is, at best, an impediment to universal socialism.
The idea that most Christian sects or even the people who are in then believe non-believers get sent to hell is an incredibly erroneous statement my friend.
I’m not sure what your end goal would be for fellow Christian socialists but I’m not sure I’d want you at any levers of power if you’re implying what I think you’re implying.
If you and other leftists here don’t want even the best of Christians around then I’m thoroughly ashamed to be apart of this community. The Christian socialist goal has partially been to rehabilitate a faith followed by BILLIONS so that it is compatible with a kinder, socialist and Christlike world view. I’m not trying to downplay the fact that the crimes of capitalism are done in part by Christians or in the mask of Christianity but for you to condemn us ALL is not going to make us feel like we have a place here too.
I don't know how to respond to this in a way that doesn't come across as disrespectful or snarky, so I'll just ask for any remotely credible source that backs up what you're asserting here.
:bait: What I'm implying is that you do some self-crit and read some theory.
What's the value added versus just being a kinder, socialist atheist? To take an example, in your original comment, you said "all striving to achieve or promote values that go beyond the material world" - this isn't a Marxist attitude. The material world is what we have and all that we can address. Christian eschatology has long served as a useful distraction for the ruling class. What will be left when all the incompatible elements of Christianity are pared away?
I think that's exactly what you are doing, though. See: "while I understand many of my comrades- especially my trans, LGBTQ, or Neurodivergent comrades- have had bad (to put it VERY mildly) experiences with certain forms of Christianity". I'm not the Grand Arbiter of Who's Socialist and can't include or exclude you in the movement, but if being asked to engage with the history of your own religion and socialism's intellectual foundation in atheism makes you feel excluded, I feel like you have some stuff to work out on your own.
Ok let’s engage with this take then: Christianity bad; what do you want people to do? Do you want billions of people to abandon it? What if they don’t want to do that? Are you going to re-educate them? They’re not going to want that either. You want to wipe us out? Right? That’s the end goal that you want if you think we’re all scum my guy.
And so fucking what if I have viewpoints that go beyond socialism? So what if maybe I think there’s a world beyond this? Maybe that’s FINE because informs me that I’ll be fucking judged for how I act in this life and that the right thing to do is fight capitalism in any form that it fucking takes religious or not.
What is the fucking end goal of communism if people can enjoy or explore things that aren’t trying to feed themselves? People WILL have religions and spiritual beliefs, people WILL HAVE PHILOSOPHIES that aren’t purely Marxist and maybe that isn’t always a bad thing.
All I’m asking of you is what you want Christians to do; they’re not going to lay down and have thousands of years of tradition be destroyed.
This rhetoric is so tedious and I hope this illustrates why.
As a person it doesn't matter, but this conversation was explicitly in the context of the intersection between Christianity and socialism so I don't get why you're angry that I'm pointing out incompatibilities between Christianity and socialism.
This is pretty fundamental to the issue, I'd think. Why would I want to believe that there's an omnipotent, omniscient deity out there whose morality, at least as it manifests in the book people who believe in him claim is central to that belief, is probably alien to my own. Why do so many of this teaching's followers believe that this judgment gives them the right to treat people who are perceived to be on the wrong side of it as inferiors?
You're moving the goalposts. We're not discussing the benefit of religion, spiritual beliefs, and philosophies (which are not things that deserve to be lumped together, imho) in the broad sense, we're discussing a specific religious belief.