Despite all by bitching about Deng, I don't think his path was an unreasonable plan for transition. Although, I think there were many excesses and problems that came with it.
The only thing I want to push back on here is the idea of conscription and child labor. The education system was explicitly meant to graft on to the material conditions of the villages in which it was located. This meant adding engineering and farming into the curriculum. Most people found the traditional education curriculum to favor theoretical over practical knowledge. Socialist education in general has an emphasis on practical application, so this naturally involved students spending time in factories and in fields, but this was not how the majority of their time was spent. This experience gave them technical know how and real world knowledge that they could leverage in their university courses (which also had technical work as a prerequisite for admission). Connecting students to their community also had the effect that students would return to their rural hometowns after university to help develop the area with their new skills. This is a stark contrast to the brain drain happening in rural areas now.
It was really closer to public schooling with vocational elements that ensures students actually knew how to do the jobs they would eventually enter.
Ironically I'd say that's the part I'm the most confident on, since I'm going off of the direct testimony of a Marxist who lived through the period and was one of those children -- along with his siblings, cousins, neighbors, etc. He mostly views it like the stereotypical sort of trauma rationalization "it fucking sucked, but I like to think that I got something out of it anyway". He thinks the principal made sense but perhaps there was a better way to approach it, probably including by lightening the workload of children a bit.
Of course, if I remember your username, you probably also know people who experienced it, so perhaps you have contrary testimony.
He thinks the principal made sense but perhaps there was a better way to approach it, probably including by lightening the workload of children a bit.
Sure, I'm not dogmatic. I'm always down to change approaches.
since I’m going off of the direct testimony of a Marxist who lived through the period and was one of those children
My source is Dongping Han. He lived through the CR himself, and his book compiled hundreds of testimonies from rural people and their feelings at the time. He argues that the time is remembered overwhelmingly positively, and people felt excited and politically empowered in a way thay never felt and haven't since.
He even provides a neat "where are they now" segment for the young red guards who went through the school system and how they feel about it.
rationalization “it fucking sucked, but I like to think that I got something out of it anyway"
Despite that fact that this person may not have seen the benefit, it really did go a long way in combating brain drain and developing the countryside. Education jumped from 30% to 90%. Without this school / work program, the poor kids would just end up working 100% of the time like they did before and after the CR. I'm not saying this person's experience doesn't matter. I'm just saying that the benefits may not have been personally apparent.
you probably also know people who experienced it, so perhaps you have contrary testimony.
No, actually. I don't know anyone who experienced it themselves (I know someone who participated in the tiannamen protests tho). I have met many of the children of people who lived through the CR. They tend to argue that the CR was a complete disaster. However, it's worth pointing out that the people I come into contact with are of an educated intellectual class who were the direct target of the CR. They tend to have a big time "egg monopoly" bias when speaking of the time. I can't ask how rural people felt because I can't meet them, and they often speak different dialects. However, I have visited the city that is the subject of Han's book, and they are still living in poverty there.
Anyway, I'd love to hear more about that testimony or others you've collected if you want to DM me sometime. I think that stuff and era are super interesting.
My source is Dongping Han. He lived through the CR himself, and his book compiled hundreds of testimonies from rural people and their feelings at the time. He argues that the time is remembered overwhelmingly positively, and people felt excited and politically empowered in a way thay never felt and haven’t since.
I think there's a big difference between people looking back in retrospect and what people on the ground thought in 1976. I would argue that by 1976, the Chinese masses were largely sick and tired of the Cultural Revolution. One major sign would be the Tiananmen Incident of 1976, where there were massive protests because the Gang of Four tried to ban public mourning of Zhou Enlai. 1976 was when Zhou Enlai, Zhu De, and Mao died as well as a giant earthquake where more than 300000 people died. A conservative reversal was inevitable, which was why there were massive parades when the Gang of Four were arrested and the Cultural Revolution is over. The Cultural Revolution more or less ended when it was supposed to.
In many ways, I see similarities between the end of the Cultural Revolution and the end of zero-Covid in China. They might look back at it decades later and say to themselves, "Damn, we really had something good going," but at the very moment, enough of Chinese society supported the end. You can't plan society exclusively in a paternal "you hate this now, but you'll thank us decades from now." That shit doesn't even work for raising a child, so how would it work for the masses?
Dongping Han's "The Unknown Cultural Revolution." I really highly recommend it. Way better than Gao's in my opinion. Gives a great look at what life on the ground was like.
I think this is a reasonable line.
Despite all by bitching about Deng, I don't think his path was an unreasonable plan for transition. Although, I think there were many excesses and problems that came with it.
The only thing I want to push back on here is the idea of conscription and child labor. The education system was explicitly meant to graft on to the material conditions of the villages in which it was located. This meant adding engineering and farming into the curriculum. Most people found the traditional education curriculum to favor theoretical over practical knowledge. Socialist education in general has an emphasis on practical application, so this naturally involved students spending time in factories and in fields, but this was not how the majority of their time was spent. This experience gave them technical know how and real world knowledge that they could leverage in their university courses (which also had technical work as a prerequisite for admission). Connecting students to their community also had the effect that students would return to their rural hometowns after university to help develop the area with their new skills. This is a stark contrast to the brain drain happening in rural areas now.
It was really closer to public schooling with vocational elements that ensures students actually knew how to do the jobs they would eventually enter.
Ironically I'd say that's the part I'm the most confident on, since I'm going off of the direct testimony of a Marxist who lived through the period and was one of those children -- along with his siblings, cousins, neighbors, etc. He mostly views it like the stereotypical sort of trauma rationalization "it fucking sucked, but I like to think that I got something out of it anyway". He thinks the principal made sense but perhaps there was a better way to approach it, probably including by lightening the workload of children a bit.
Of course, if I remember your username, you probably also know people who experienced it, so perhaps you have contrary testimony.
Sure, I'm not dogmatic. I'm always down to change approaches.
My source is Dongping Han. He lived through the CR himself, and his book compiled hundreds of testimonies from rural people and their feelings at the time. He argues that the time is remembered overwhelmingly positively, and people felt excited and politically empowered in a way thay never felt and haven't since.
He even provides a neat "where are they now" segment for the young red guards who went through the school system and how they feel about it.
Despite that fact that this person may not have seen the benefit, it really did go a long way in combating brain drain and developing the countryside. Education jumped from 30% to 90%. Without this school / work program, the poor kids would just end up working 100% of the time like they did before and after the CR. I'm not saying this person's experience doesn't matter. I'm just saying that the benefits may not have been personally apparent.
No, actually. I don't know anyone who experienced it themselves (I know someone who participated in the tiannamen protests tho). I have met many of the children of people who lived through the CR. They tend to argue that the CR was a complete disaster. However, it's worth pointing out that the people I come into contact with are of an educated intellectual class who were the direct target of the CR. They tend to have a big time "egg monopoly" bias when speaking of the time. I can't ask how rural people felt because I can't meet them, and they often speak different dialects. However, I have visited the city that is the subject of Han's book, and they are still living in poverty there.
Anyway, I'd love to hear more about that testimony or others you've collected if you want to DM me sometime. I think that stuff and era are super interesting.
I think there's a big difference between people looking back in retrospect and what people on the ground thought in 1976. I would argue that by 1976, the Chinese masses were largely sick and tired of the Cultural Revolution. One major sign would be the Tiananmen Incident of 1976, where there were massive protests because the Gang of Four tried to ban public mourning of Zhou Enlai. 1976 was when Zhou Enlai, Zhu De, and Mao died as well as a giant earthquake where more than 300000 people died. A conservative reversal was inevitable, which was why there were massive parades when the Gang of Four were arrested and the Cultural Revolution is over. The Cultural Revolution more or less ended when it was supposed to.
In many ways, I see similarities between the end of the Cultural Revolution and the end of zero-Covid in China. They might look back at it decades later and say to themselves, "Damn, we really had something good going," but at the very moment, enough of Chinese society supported the end. You can't plan society exclusively in a paternal "you hate this now, but you'll thank us decades from now." That shit doesn't even work for raising a child, so how would it work for the masses?
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Dongping Han's "The Unknown Cultural Revolution." I really highly recommend it. Way better than Gao's in my opinion. Gives a great look at what life on the ground was like.