Are you the person I talked about this last time with? God fucking damn it
It's like the most standard thing in smutty reactionary writing to have the big, dark skinned savages molest the fair-skinned lady in a way that is both highly sexualized and functions as a causus belli for the protagonists. Have you seen any of SAO's arcs besides the first one and the Asuna-led one? All the others use this trope at some point as foreplay to their revenge porn.
You are displaying a level of media literacy that would have you defending Birth of a Nation if not for social stigma. "Obviously the black people in this setting are ontologically savage to keep you nerds from worrying about the possibility that there are Good Ones! In this universe, the Klan is heroic, so there's nothing wrong with cheering them on!"
There is no questioning of why this is the story the author wants to tell. Why is it along racial lines? Why is it a story of genocide instead of some revenge porn against a specific gang, like happens in Taken? Why do we have our hero be identified primarily as an exterminator of life-unworthy-of-life and not as a protector of the innocent, despite that being the nominal justification of the story? Why is the evil race coded as savage, with dark skin, primitive tools, and ragged clothes? What relationship does a work like this have with the real world? Having people be wronged by goblins and then monomaniacly fixated on ethnic cleansing because they are all bad sure reminds me of something I've heard of before.
my brother in christ it is a goblin it is a fantasy creature
Yes, a fantasy race one might even say. Tell me, was Birth of a Nation's biggest problem that it didn't make the black people have little cloven hooves and call them satyrs? Would it be above criticism if it merely depicted the revival of the Klan as a way to terrorize and slaughter these dark-skinned, lustful, savage satyrs with no relation to black people?
Because it is a dnd setting and it’s easy to write it that way
I promise you that it's just as easy to write the enemy as being bandits. Hell, even writing them as slimes (an even-more-common bottom-level enemy, #1 along with rats) would be better, since those aren't remotely humanoid but can have basically whatever properties the author wants because they are so literally amorphous.
I promise you that it’s just as easy to write the enemy as being bandits.
No because then you have the nerds going on about "what about their families" and shit. Revenge porn about bandits is imo worse than making it about a "race" shown to be objectively evil in universe but I guess then basically you just have fantasy batman idk
Anyway I am annoyed with nerds taking race essentialism from dnd and mapping it to the real world like tolkien's treatment of orcs is another Armenian genocide. "This goblin is a stand in for ME" :jesse-wtf:
Focus on the slime counterproposition then, instead of cherrypicking the weaker example like it's all I said
That said, it's hilarious how you readily concede that Rowling's goblins are fucked up tropes but here when you see goblins that have a single-minded motivation to rape and murder, live in Caves with crude tools and loincloths, have dark skin, low intelligence, and no empathy for the light skinned population that they terrorize, you go "Tropes? Tropes? Nononono, no way"
Even when you get someone directly saying "these are tropes of people from my race" you dismiss that person as a "nerd" like that just solves the issue.
What race?? What fucking real world race are any of those traits associated with? My god. They're... green! Rowling's goblins are literally a list of Jewish stereotypes. You're like... "Tolkien's gollum is racist caricature, he lives in a cave like a primitive and those are racial tropes" like :jesse-wtf:
Focus on the slime counterproposition then, instead of cherrypicking the weaker example like it’s all I said
I could and argue about how it's weak as shit when the only difference is one is humanoid and the other can be humanoid. A slime can be portrayed as just as sapient, and Im sure there'd be nerds arguing with me then about how they're a stand in for their ethnicity or something. Slime genocide is still genocide after all
What race?? What fucking real world race are any of those traits associated with?
Several! It's literally the most common racial caricature of aboriginal people and Africans, hence my mentioning Birth of a Nation.
"Tolkien’s gollum is racist caricature, he lives in a cave like a primitive and those are racial tropes” like
Gollum is a) an individual, b) a creature transformed into a lower state by the ring, c) a member of a race that we see many examples of and d) doesn't really conform to a racial stereotype anyway
The confluence of tropes I mentioned is, again, specifically the "savage" caricature whites used against Native Americans, Africans, and Australian aborigines, which involves many specific features other than living in Caves, features I listed and you feign ignorance of.
Slimes could be used in a racist way, but it would be exceedingly easy not to because they are capable of things that primate-likes aren't, such as mitosis or a more credible way of being both mindless and complex through hive or colonial functioning since they literally don't have brains. They can exist in the wild without being cavemen because they can form their bodies into tools, they can introduce many features that flat don't apply to people such as seeping through the cracks of stone fortification, being acidic, etc
This really isn't that hard if you try to think about it instead of shouting "nerd" over and over like it's a chant to keep evil spirits at bay.
Several! It’s literally the most common racial caricature of aboriginal people and Africans, hence my mentioning Birth of a Nation.
the concept of a primitive society living in caves in a fantasy world is racist because if you squint you can make it look like nonsensical, false ideas about a disparate group of unconnected ethnicities
This is just like if you asked 4chan to design a character named "the evil jew" and made your goblins look like that
Literally mad that they use stone tools just lmao my god
[a concept] is racist because if you squint you can make it look like nonsensical, false ideas about a disparate group of unconnected ethnicities
In a small way we're making progress because the rhetorical knots you are tying yourself in are increasingly poor.
nonsensical, false ideas
Standard of a racial caricature, or do you think Jews are really greedy?
about a disparate group of unconnected ethnicities
They are not especially close genealogically, but they are socially quite connected as colonized first peoples
Taking these things in mind, you question is if the depiction of goblins:
is racist because if you squint you can make it look like [the racial caricatures] about [colonized first peoples]
And suddenly the question is just the squinting part, i.e. "How similar is this to those caricatures?" which is what I've been trying to discuss, though you keep cherry picking individual elements when my argument is that it, like most caricatures, is a confluence of traits. It's like if the defense in a stabbing case said "Yes, my client owns a knife, but so do many people. Are you going to convict him just for that?" "Yes, my client was at the park at the time of the attack. What? Is it illegal to visit the park? lmao" "Yes, my client was seen disposing of what may have been a pair of gloves. What? Do you propose that just taking out the trash makes them a killer? Is that really all you have?"
Like, it's inductive reasoning, not deductive reasoning. I am not proposing these elements in isolation.
You can look at Dr. Stone and see primitive societies that aren't racial stereotypes, even though one of them is indeed quite violent. That's not what I'm saying and I think you know that's not what I'm saying, which makes me wonder why you even bother. Are you that upset by criticism of this obviously sexist, racist shit that you think you can just string me along until I get bored of it and then you can enjoy your wholesome rape softporn and genocide series in peace? I'm going to keep re-explaining myself every time you mischaracterize me, so you're going to need to develop a new coping strategy or just learn to wank while keeping your mouth shut. Do what you fucking want, but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.
In a small way we’re making progress because the rhetorical knots you are tying yourself in are increasingly poor.
talking like this about anime shit is why I say "nerds" you're a nerd I'm a nerd it's okay to admit it's nerd shit when you debate bro about fantasy race politics in anime for like 4 hours
Standard of a racial caricature, or do you think Jews are really greedy?
a well known racist trope versus literally the vaguest shit you can imagine "primitive humanoids living in caves" but ok.
They are not especially close genealogically, but they are socially quite connected as colonized first peoples
UM, okay. aboriginal society and african society are close enough that you can caricaturize them as "green stone tool people in caves" :bruh-moment: i've heard all kinds of racist cracker shit but that's new to me
And suddenly the question is just the squinting part,
my question is why you identify societies across the world that have literally nothing to do with each other (except "being colonized" I guess?) as being close enough that they can be portrayed as green cave living rapists and that these goblins are an intentional mockery of these ethnicities and societies, because that is wild
You can look at Dr. Stone
i'm surprised you can look at doctor stone with all its underaged panty shots and sexualization, more problematic than "the existence of goblins" imo
And now you've resorted 100% to miserable deflection, calling me racist for talking about racial caricatures and so on. This is such a pathetic behavior, especially if you were the person who was caping for this shit last time.
i like how this started from iirc me saying "I like the intersection of real world physics with magic bullshit" and you saying it doesn't even do that well, you could have talked about better anime that do that instead
calling me racist for talking about racial caricatures
the negation of disparate peoples into one that you are weirdly identifying with "green cave dwelling primitive rapists" while insisting that depiction is JUST as racist as harry potter goblins is kinda racist imo, especially the latter bit because harry potter goblins are literally a 1:1 recreation of racist tropes no stretch needed and saying goblin slayer is "just as bad" imo diminishes that anti semitism
the negation of disparate peoples into one that you are weirdly identifying with “green cave dwelling primitive rapists” while insisting that depiction is JUST as racist as harry potter goblins is kinda racist imo, especially the latter bit because harry potter goblins are literally a 1:1 recreation of racist tropes no stretch needed and saying goblin slayer is “just as bad” imo diminishes that anti semitism
First of all, fuck off. Secondly, you are unsurprisingly wildly ignorant about what a racial caricature is if you think this is a tenable line of logic. Racial caricatures are things constructed by racists, not properties of the groups they purport to represent. The three groups I mentioned were all victims of British colonization, portrayed by those British settlers in this way (and, importantly, this was all transmitted back to Britain itself, see e.g. the racism of Darwin), and have very similar stereotypes that survive into the modern day because of that very legacy. Dividing the world into "us," "maybe some other Euros," and "the savages" was a huge part of Britain's characterization of the world!
You would struggle to make the GS Goblins more on the nose in terms of their behavior than what we see already. Basically the only way it could be done is by having goblin slaves so you could demonstrate them being lazy in chains and unable to cope with freedom.
I looked it up because I forgot if I was conflating it with the Trolls from Berserk and, in GS, it turns out:
Goblins are an all-male species, but possess the ability to breed with any race with the pregnancy always resulting in goblin children.
We've even got some fucking miscegenation shit with the corrupting influence of savage blood overriding the heredity of the fairer race!
Wild how this species exists just to rape and murder (and, lacking any females and any ability to relate to other species, can only reproduce by rape) so that the more technologically advanced, light-skinned, Euro-coded humans can be completely justified in eradicating them. Couldn't we have, like, just the murder and not the eroticized rape? Nope! Maybe more representation on the human side to -- no, nope, I'm being told that the curtains are blue.
not even in the wildest racism have I ever seen the peoples of 3 different continents uniformly portrayed as "green skinned goblins living in caves who rape people" but ok chief
I looked it up because I forgot if I was conflating it with the Trolls from Berserk and, in GS, it turns out:
yeah it's the same in berserk, which is honestly even worse much more frequently but strangely tolerated by the ol hexbear anime experts (tm) huh
Wild how this species exists just to rape and murder (and, lacking any females and any ability to relate to other species, can only reproduce by rape) so that the more technologically advanced, light-skinned, Euro-coded humans can be completely justified in eradicating them.
wild how goblin slayer is a series about slaying goblins and uses some kind of conceit to make it okay
y'all act like they're drawn like the fucking cockroaches in terraformars like your reaction is wild
yeah it’s the same in berserk, which is honestly even worse much more frequently but strangely tolerated by the ol hexbear anime experts ™ huh
Oh no, it must be so hard when people are intolerant of uwu smol bean anime fans like you because they want to offer criticism of an anime. I'd offer you a hug if you were here, maybe some warm milk and a blanket. I can't imagine what it must be like to be the most downtrodden minority, the anime fan, when those uppity ethnic people tell you such violent, hateful things like "Hey, this anime's monsters are similar to how my people have been depicted and I don't think that should be taken so lightly".
I welcome you to criticize Berserk, have at it! That's not my fucking point (or CriticalOtaku's) because I'm not telling you what to like or not like (nor were they). You're the one obsessed with moralizing, I just think we should call a spade a spade instead of pretending it's something else, while you sit here fucking gaslighting people so that you don't feel like anyone gives you funny looks for liking your eroticized rape with fake physics.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that you can't read more than three sentences at a time unless it's explaining why the repeated use of rape in a story is actually progressive and necessary.
i like how this started from iirc me saying “I like the intersection of real world physics with magic bullshit” and you saying it doesn’t even do that well, you could have talked about better anime that do that instead
I like how that bit about physics leads you to spend hours screaming that the curtains are blue and calling people who disagree with you racist. Sorry, that's not true, I don't like that.
I've been told .hack does that stuff well. Ironically, Dr. Stone sometimes also does. Hunter x Hunter has its moments.
Baki (and martial arts manga in general) do what I would argue is a more self-aware version of this by taking a "story" about how something in physics works and then having someone "master" using the interaction in order to weaponize it. Most times when physics is used in an action manga, especially ones with flimsy writing like Goblin Slayer, are based on using a very selective understanding of whatever the "physics" is that it evokes to look clever when it may as well just be making something up.
You poor thing, maybe if you just dropped the subject instead of arguing in obvious bad faith for hours this could have been avoided! No, it must be the fault of those nerds
Are you the person I talked about this last time with? God fucking damn it
It's like the most standard thing in smutty reactionary writing to have the big, dark skinned savages molest the fair-skinned lady in a way that is both highly sexualized and functions as a causus belli for the protagonists. Have you seen any of SAO's arcs besides the first one and the Asuna-led one? All the others use this trope at some point as foreplay to their revenge porn.
You are displaying a level of media literacy that would have you defending Birth of a Nation if not for social stigma. "Obviously the black people in this setting are ontologically savage to keep you nerds from worrying about the possibility that there are Good Ones! In this universe, the Klan is heroic, so there's nothing wrong with cheering them on!"
There is no questioning of why this is the story the author wants to tell. Why is it along racial lines? Why is it a story of genocide instead of some revenge porn against a specific gang, like happens in Taken? Why do we have our hero be identified primarily as an exterminator of life-unworthy-of-life and not as a protector of the innocent, despite that being the nominal justification of the story? Why is the evil race coded as savage, with dark skin, primitive tools, and ragged clothes? What relationship does a work like this have with the real world? Having people be wronged by goblins and then monomaniacly fixated on ethnic cleansing because they are all bad sure reminds me of something I've heard of before.
If it bothers you you could not
my brother in christ it is a goblin it is a fantasy creature
Because it is a dnd setting and it's easy to write it that way
Again i'm sorry it's not goblin befriender. That'd be a good show too but ya know, this ain't it
Yes, a fantasy race one might even say. Tell me, was Birth of a Nation's biggest problem that it didn't make the black people have little cloven hooves and call them satyrs? Would it be above criticism if it merely depicted the revival of the Klan as a way to terrorize and slaughter these dark-skinned, lustful, savage satyrs with no relation to black people?
I promise you that it's just as easy to write the enemy as being bandits. Hell, even writing them as slimes (an even-more-common bottom-level enemy, #1 along with rats) would be better, since those aren't remotely humanoid but can have basically whatever properties the author wants because they are so literally amorphous.
No because then you have the nerds going on about "what about their families" and shit. Revenge porn about bandits is imo worse than making it about a "race" shown to be objectively evil in universe but I guess then basically you just have fantasy batman idk
Anyway I am annoyed with nerds taking race essentialism from dnd and mapping it to the real world like tolkien's treatment of orcs is another Armenian genocide. "This goblin is a stand in for ME" :jesse-wtf:
Focus on the slime counterproposition then, instead of cherrypicking the weaker example like it's all I said
That said, it's hilarious how you readily concede that Rowling's goblins are fucked up tropes but here when you see goblins that have a single-minded motivation to rape and murder, live in Caves with crude tools and loincloths, have dark skin, low intelligence, and no empathy for the light skinned population that they terrorize, you go "Tropes? Tropes? Nononono, no way"
Even when you get someone directly saying "these are tropes of people from my race" you dismiss that person as a "nerd" like that just solves the issue.
What race?? What fucking real world race are any of those traits associated with? My god. They're... green! Rowling's goblins are literally a list of Jewish stereotypes. You're like... "Tolkien's gollum is racist caricature, he lives in a cave like a primitive and those are racial tropes" like :jesse-wtf:
I could and argue about how it's weak as shit when the only difference is one is humanoid and the other can be humanoid. A slime can be portrayed as just as sapient, and Im sure there'd be nerds arguing with me then about how they're a stand in for their ethnicity or something. Slime genocide is still genocide after all
Several! It's literally the most common racial caricature of aboriginal people and Africans, hence my mentioning Birth of a Nation.
Gollum is a) an individual, b) a creature transformed into a lower state by the ring, c) a member of a race that we see many examples of and d) doesn't really conform to a racial stereotype anyway
The confluence of tropes I mentioned is, again, specifically the "savage" caricature whites used against Native Americans, Africans, and Australian aborigines, which involves many specific features other than living in Caves, features I listed and you feign ignorance of.
Slimes could be used in a racist way, but it would be exceedingly easy not to because they are capable of things that primate-likes aren't, such as mitosis or a more credible way of being both mindless and complex through hive or colonial functioning since they literally don't have brains. They can exist in the wild without being cavemen because they can form their bodies into tools, they can introduce many features that flat don't apply to people such as seeping through the cracks of stone fortification, being acidic, etc
This really isn't that hard if you try to think about it instead of shouting "nerd" over and over like it's a chant to keep evil spirits at bay.
the concept of a primitive society living in caves in a fantasy world is racist because if you squint you can make it look like nonsensical, false ideas about a disparate group of unconnected ethnicities
This is just like if you asked 4chan to design a character named "the evil jew" and made your goblins look like that
Literally mad that they use stone tools just lmao my god
In a small way we're making progress because the rhetorical knots you are tying yourself in are increasingly poor.
Standard of a racial caricature, or do you think Jews are really greedy?
They are not especially close genealogically, but they are socially quite connected as colonized first peoples
Taking these things in mind, you question is if the depiction of goblins:
And suddenly the question is just the squinting part, i.e. "How similar is this to those caricatures?" which is what I've been trying to discuss, though you keep cherry picking individual elements when my argument is that it, like most caricatures, is a confluence of traits. It's like if the defense in a stabbing case said "Yes, my client owns a knife, but so do many people. Are you going to convict him just for that?" "Yes, my client was at the park at the time of the attack. What? Is it illegal to visit the park? lmao" "Yes, my client was seen disposing of what may have been a pair of gloves. What? Do you propose that just taking out the trash makes them a killer? Is that really all you have?"
Like, it's inductive reasoning, not deductive reasoning. I am not proposing these elements in isolation.
You can look at Dr. Stone and see primitive societies that aren't racial stereotypes, even though one of them is indeed quite violent. That's not what I'm saying and I think you know that's not what I'm saying, which makes me wonder why you even bother. Are you that upset by criticism of this obviously sexist, racist shit that you think you can just string me along until I get bored of it and then you can enjoy your wholesome rape softporn and genocide series in peace? I'm going to keep re-explaining myself every time you mischaracterize me, so you're going to need to develop a new coping strategy or just learn to wank while keeping your mouth shut. Do what you fucking want, but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.
talking like this about anime shit is why I say "nerds" you're a nerd I'm a nerd it's okay to admit it's nerd shit when you debate bro about fantasy race politics in anime for like 4 hours
a well known racist trope versus literally the vaguest shit you can imagine "primitive humanoids living in caves" but ok.
UM, okay. aboriginal society and african society are close enough that you can caricaturize them as "green stone tool people in caves" :bruh-moment: i've heard all kinds of racist cracker shit but that's new to me
my question is why you identify societies across the world that have literally nothing to do with each other (except "being colonized" I guess?) as being close enough that they can be portrayed as green cave living rapists and that these goblins are an intentional mockery of these ethnicities and societies, because that is wild
i'm surprised you can look at doctor stone with all its underaged panty shots and sexualization, more problematic than "the existence of goblins" imo
And now you've resorted 100% to miserable deflection, calling me racist for talking about racial caricatures and so on. This is such a pathetic behavior, especially if you were the person who was caping for this shit last time.
i like how this started from iirc me saying "I like the intersection of real world physics with magic bullshit" and you saying it doesn't even do that well, you could have talked about better anime that do that instead
the negation of disparate peoples into one that you are weirdly identifying with "green cave dwelling primitive rapists" while insisting that depiction is JUST as racist as harry potter goblins is kinda racist imo, especially the latter bit because harry potter goblins are literally a 1:1 recreation of racist tropes no stretch needed and saying goblin slayer is "just as bad" imo diminishes that anti semitism
First of all, fuck off. Secondly, you are unsurprisingly wildly ignorant about what a racial caricature is if you think this is a tenable line of logic. Racial caricatures are things constructed by racists, not properties of the groups they purport to represent. The three groups I mentioned were all victims of British colonization, portrayed by those British settlers in this way (and, importantly, this was all transmitted back to Britain itself, see e.g. the racism of Darwin), and have very similar stereotypes that survive into the modern day because of that very legacy. Dividing the world into "us," "maybe some other Euros," and "the savages" was a huge part of Britain's characterization of the world!
You would struggle to make the GS Goblins more on the nose in terms of their behavior than what we see already. Basically the only way it could be done is by having goblin slaves so you could demonstrate them being lazy in chains and unable to cope with freedom.
I looked it up because I forgot if I was conflating it with the Trolls from Berserk and, in GS, it turns out:
We've even got some fucking miscegenation shit with the corrupting influence of savage blood overriding the heredity of the fairer race!
Wild how this species exists just to rape and murder (and, lacking any females and any ability to relate to other species, can only reproduce by rape) so that the more technologically advanced, light-skinned, Euro-coded humans can be completely justified in eradicating them. Couldn't we have, like, just the murder and not the eroticized rape? Nope! Maybe more representation on the human side to -- no, nope, I'm being told that the curtains are blue.
you first
not even in the wildest racism have I ever seen the peoples of 3 different continents uniformly portrayed as "green skinned goblins living in caves who rape people" but ok chief
yeah it's the same in berserk, which is honestly even worse much more frequently but strangely tolerated by the ol hexbear anime experts (tm) huh
wild how goblin slayer is a series about slaying goblins and uses some kind of conceit to make it okay
y'all act like they're drawn like the fucking cockroaches in terraformars like your reaction is wild
Oh no, it must be so hard when people are intolerant of uwu smol bean anime fans like you because they want to offer criticism of an anime. I'd offer you a hug if you were here, maybe some warm milk and a blanket. I can't imagine what it must be like to be the most downtrodden minority, the anime fan, when those uppity ethnic people tell you such violent, hateful things like "Hey, this anime's monsters are similar to how my people have been depicted and I don't think that should be taken so lightly".
I welcome you to criticize Berserk, have at it! That's not my fucking point (or CriticalOtaku's) because I'm not telling you what to like or not like (nor were they). You're the one obsessed with moralizing, I just think we should call a spade a spade instead of pretending it's something else, while you sit here fucking gaslighting people so that you don't feel like anyone gives you funny looks for liking your eroticized rape with fake physics.
🙄
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that you can't read more than three sentences at a time unless it's explaining why the repeated use of rape in a story is actually progressive and necessary.
🙄
I like how that bit about physics leads you to spend hours screaming that the curtains are blue and calling people who disagree with you racist. Sorry, that's not true, I don't like that.
I've been told .hack does that stuff well. Ironically, Dr. Stone sometimes also does. Hunter x Hunter has its moments.
Baki (and martial arts manga in general) do what I would argue is a more self-aware version of this by taking a "story" about how something in physics works and then having someone "master" using the interaction in order to weaponize it. Most times when physics is used in an action manga, especially ones with flimsy writing like Goblin Slayer, are based on using a very selective understanding of whatever the "physics" is that it evokes to look clever when it may as well just be making something up.
weird obsession with curtains ngl
Wow, so I do talk about the subject you request and you ignore it. Who could have guessed you were just concern trolling :blob-no-thoughts:
I said you could have talked about it like hours ago when I would have given a shit instead of after I felt annoyed by this all day
You poor thing, maybe if you just dropped the subject instead of arguing in obvious bad faith for hours this could have been avoided! No, it must be the fault of those nerds
🙄
You're just going to keep caping for softporn rape the next time too, aren't you?
🙄
If it's so hard, you could keep your fucking mouth shut next time instead of stringing people along for hours with bullshit you don't mean
🙄 🙄
I'm not the one who spent like an hour calling people racist because they objected to rape porn, maybe forward your complaints to that fellow
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