What I love about this is that it's exactly the same argument some factions in the left made at the turn of the 20th century about how the U.S. and Japan challenging the European empires for global supremacy was good because British Imperialism was the greater evil. Replace the U.S. with the UK, replace China with the U.S., and this could have been written by a German communist commenting on the Spanish American War. Spoiler alert: supporting the emerging superpower over the fading ones didn't result in global communism. Fifty years from now, when Chinese capitalists wrest their "fair" share of Nigerian oil fields from Exxon Mobile, will the Nigerian people be better off? Not at all, but people on the 'left' will be making this same argument about how we all have to defend the BJP's India because it's "challenging Chinese imperialism."
For those under the impression that what China is doing in Africa is just as bad as Western colonialism, I highly recommend checking out this Yale lecture from a Ph.D candidate who spent 10 months conducting field research in Africa:
https://youtu.be/wMCF2eu1D0E
tldw:
how good Chinese investments are for the country vary on a case-to-case basis
African countries have a lot of bargaining power much more so than with Western investments
magnitude of 'debt trap' narrative is overstated (see works by Deborah Brautigam)
countries that negotiate weaker deals for numerous potential reasons fail to take advantage of that bargaining power
I never said it was "as bad." It's bad though. Probably makes me a white rat or revisionist or something, but I'm of the opinion that African workers ought to receive the benefits of African resources (to the extent that any of this stuff should be coming out of the ground in the first place).
Ah okay. Sorry I was under the impression the argument you were making with the Spanish American War analogy hinged on the assumption that China in the future will be just as bad if not worse than US.
African workers ought to receive the benefits of African resources
I mean it's not like China is giving them nothing in exchange for the resources.
Btw the Yale lecture I mentioned goes into detail about how the fairness of the deals vary from country to country and how African countries actually have quite a lot of bargaining power. So basically in cases where a country gets weaker deals (e.g. Nigeria, Kenya) it's often due to them failing to take advantage of that bargaining power unlike some other countries (e.g. Ethiopia, Tanzania).
I definitely think China in the future will try to push worse conditions on African coutnries as it gains more power, but it will never be as bad as the U.S., British and French were in the 20th century. Why? Because of that bargaining power you mention. The U.S. and China, to the extent to which they may be entering a cold war, are not nearly as large a part of the global economy as the U.S. and USSR were in 1950. Any competition between these diminished powers will give third parties more negotiating power than they had in the 20th century. The original Cold War was not a two sided conflict either, of course, despite the gross oversimplification we find in, for example, Gkalaitza's surrounding comments or U.S. popular culture. But a new one (if it happens) will be even less binary, giving third party countries even more bargaining power (if they choose to use it). We need international leftist and union alliances to put pressure on the governments on all sides of these deals.
I see. I think at this point we're talking about legit actionable criticism that would be based on the actual terms of specific deals, which is different from the typical low-effort takes that get labeled as "endorsing imperialists" which Gkalaitza and many others in this thread have been arguing against.
Wow, you're super angry. Did you have a bad day at work or something? That sucks, solidarity with whatever struggles you're facing!
A lot of this doesn't really seem to be related to the Spanish American War analogy. I never said China was a worse actor in foreign affairs than the U.S., or that China killed hundreds of millions of people, or that they have done more harm in Africa than the West has, or that we should be supporting Bernie. I do, however, believe we on the left ought not be aligning ourselves with an emerging capitalist superpower (I'm sure you disagree with that characterization, but ya'know, gonna have to agree to disagree on that).
Ask some cubans and Venezuelans and Bolivians and Iranians whose relationship with China and the help they getis the only thing keeping them afloat on how you shouldn’t support either.
Ask some Vietnamese about their relationship with China. Ya'know, the communist country China invaded and fought with for over a decade? I have much respect for the Cuban and Bolivian revolutions, but I don't need to support China to support them.
Countries are defined by their history, culture, economic and material development and progress.
China was a smaller country focused around the east coast, until the Qing dynasty invaded its weaker neighbors and established (roughly) the country's current borders. In fact, there are some fascinating western-style literary works from the Qing dynasty that fit very well with American cowboy tropes about "civilized" easterners bringing "light" to the western frontier. Sounds a lot like... the U.S. Your whole "the Chinese are historically/culturally incapable of imperialism" thing is super weird.
Dude, I really don't get where you're coming from here. You make a lot of wild guesses about what I think or what I believe, but I haven't really made many affirmative claims in our conversation, so I don't know where this shit is coming from. I have to say, you're really not disproving my comment below about the Jack Ma defense squad mostly jousting with strawmen.
I guess the lesson here is, if you want people to engage you in a good faith debate over your novella-length posts, don't reply to them by calling them "insanely dumb" "a hypocrite" and "disgusting" pulling "dumb opinions" "straight out [their] ass." Would've thought that's something you'd have learned as a kid, but I guess not. Still, it's good to get this stuff out of one's system online, before attempting to engage in real-world activism.
🤣 I'm picturing you tabling on the street somewhere, and someone walks by and makes an obscure analogy to the Russo-Turkish War of 1877 or the Battle of Lissa or something, and you get on a table and start yelling about how they are a grotesque capitalist running dog. Wouldn't end in a victory for the immortal science, I think. 🤣
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What I love about this is that it's exactly the same argument some factions in the left made at the turn of the 20th century about how the U.S. and Japan challenging the European empires for global supremacy was good because British Imperialism was the greater evil. Replace the U.S. with the UK, replace China with the U.S., and this could have been written by a German communist commenting on the Spanish American War. Spoiler alert: supporting the emerging superpower over the fading ones didn't result in global communism. Fifty years from now, when Chinese capitalists wrest their "fair" share of Nigerian oil fields from Exxon Mobile, will the Nigerian people be better off? Not at all, but people on the 'left' will be making this same argument about how we all have to defend the BJP's India because it's "challenging Chinese imperialism."
I know team Belt and Road prefers hysterical Grayzone stuff, but here's an interesting article on the history of the left viz a viz the Spanish American war if anyone else is curious.
For those under the impression that what China is doing in Africa is just as bad as Western colonialism, I highly recommend checking out this Yale lecture from a Ph.D candidate who spent 10 months conducting field research in Africa: https://youtu.be/wMCF2eu1D0E
tldw:
I never said it was "as bad." It's bad though. Probably makes me a white rat or revisionist or something, but I'm of the opinion that African workers ought to receive the benefits of African resources (to the extent that any of this stuff should be coming out of the ground in the first place).
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Ah okay. Sorry I was under the impression the argument you were making with the Spanish American War analogy hinged on the assumption that China in the future will be just as bad if not worse than US.
I mean it's not like China is giving them nothing in exchange for the resources. Btw the Yale lecture I mentioned goes into detail about how the fairness of the deals vary from country to country and how African countries actually have quite a lot of bargaining power. So basically in cases where a country gets weaker deals (e.g. Nigeria, Kenya) it's often due to them failing to take advantage of that bargaining power unlike some other countries (e.g. Ethiopia, Tanzania).
I definitely think China in the future will try to push worse conditions on African coutnries as it gains more power, but it will never be as bad as the U.S., British and French were in the 20th century. Why? Because of that bargaining power you mention. The U.S. and China, to the extent to which they may be entering a cold war, are not nearly as large a part of the global economy as the U.S. and USSR were in 1950. Any competition between these diminished powers will give third parties more negotiating power than they had in the 20th century. The original Cold War was not a two sided conflict either, of course, despite the gross oversimplification we find in, for example, Gkalaitza's surrounding comments or U.S. popular culture. But a new one (if it happens) will be even less binary, giving third party countries even more bargaining power (if they choose to use it). We need international leftist and union alliances to put pressure on the governments on all sides of these deals.
I see. I think at this point we're talking about legit actionable criticism that would be based on the actual terms of specific deals, which is different from the typical low-effort takes that get labeled as "endorsing imperialists" which Gkalaitza and many others in this thread have been arguing against.
deleted by creator
Wow, you're super angry. Did you have a bad day at work or something? That sucks, solidarity with whatever struggles you're facing!
A lot of this doesn't really seem to be related to the Spanish American War analogy. I never said China was a worse actor in foreign affairs than the U.S., or that China killed hundreds of millions of people, or that they have done more harm in Africa than the West has, or that we should be supporting Bernie. I do, however, believe we on the left ought not be aligning ourselves with an emerging capitalist superpower (I'm sure you disagree with that characterization, but ya'know, gonna have to agree to disagree on that).
Ask some Vietnamese about their relationship with China. Ya'know, the communist country China invaded and fought with for over a decade? I have much respect for the Cuban and Bolivian revolutions, but I don't need to support China to support them.
China was a smaller country focused around the east coast, until the Qing dynasty invaded its weaker neighbors and established (roughly) the country's current borders. In fact, there are some fascinating western-style literary works from the Qing dynasty that fit very well with American cowboy tropes about "civilized" easterners bringing "light" to the western frontier. Sounds a lot like... the U.S. Your whole "the Chinese are historically/culturally incapable of imperialism" thing is super weird.
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Dude, I really don't get where you're coming from here. You make a lot of wild guesses about what I think or what I believe, but I haven't really made many affirmative claims in our conversation, so I don't know where this shit is coming from. I have to say, you're really not disproving my comment below about the Jack Ma defense squad mostly jousting with strawmen.
deleted by creator
I guess the lesson here is, if you want people to engage you in a good faith debate over your novella-length posts, don't reply to them by calling them "insanely dumb" "a hypocrite" and "disgusting" pulling "dumb opinions" "straight out [their] ass." Would've thought that's something you'd have learned as a kid, but I guess not. Still, it's good to get this stuff out of one's system online, before attempting to engage in real-world activism.
🤣 I'm picturing you tabling on the street somewhere, and someone walks by and makes an obscure analogy to the Russo-Turkish War of 1877 or the Battle of Lissa or something, and you get on a table and start yelling about how they are a grotesque capitalist running dog. Wouldn't end in a victory for the immortal science, I think. 🤣
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deleted by creator