The book suggests that the defining problem driving out most people who leave is … just how American life works in the 21st century. Contemporary America simply isn’t set up to promote mutuality, care, or common life. Rather, it is designed to maximize individual accomplishment as defined by professional and financial success. Such a system leaves precious little time or energy for forms of community that don’t contribute to one’s own professional life or, as one ages, the professional prospects of one’s children. Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.
Speaking as a recovering Catholic, I think the whole child molestation thing is what put the final nail in the coffin for me. They prioritized not embarrassing the church over bringing child predators to justice. Absolutely disgusting.
Just got struck by the thought that I've never really processed how much I was probably affected by the very real terror at spending an eternity in Hell that defined my relationship to sin (making mistakes) as a child. No wonder I'm afflicted with this counterproductive perfectionism.
I wrestled with the concept of hell when I was in college, and it caused me to go nuts for a little while. I really, genuinely contemplated hell and what it actually was like and the implications of that for so many people I knew. Real Lovecraftian “horrors beyond human comprehension” kind of stuff. Christians don’t like to talk about it (outside of the church), but they actually believe 99.9% of humanity will spend eternity being tormented in ways we cannot imagine. And I think losing my mind a bit over it was a totally normal and rational reaction to that sort of thing.
The reality is that no Christians actually bother to think about hell much at all. It gives them satisfaction knowing the people they don’t like will suffer there but I don’t think hardly any Christians actually spend more than like 15 minutes of their lives thinking about hell. Because if they did, and they have even an ounce of empathy, they probably wouldn’t be Christians anymore.
IMO teaching kids about eternal torment in hell is child abuse and legally should be treated as such.
IMO teaching kids about eternal torment in hell is child abuse and legally should be treated as such.
Yeah, if you can't tell a kid that you'll skin them alive and put needles in their nails for misbehaving, I don't see why telling them the Devil will do worse is all that much better.
that defined my relationship to sin (making mistakes) as a child
that's a messed up definition of sin to tell a child. It's wrong and insane
This was a conclusion I came to myself because Sin = being bad = adults mad ergo not doing homework = sin, being too loud = sin, etc.
Eventually I think I internalized the notion that I deserve to suffer, otherwise I wouldn't be suffering so badly. And stopped trying to get what I want out of life.
Nobody understands, when God says wash your hands, God says wash your hands (CW: ableism, edgy humor from 14 years ago)
Same way they can excuse all the genocides the US has engaged in. It's "in the past" so it's all resolved, right?
It worked for centuries or millenia before, those pesky people with their new modes of communication and materialism did a lot to bring the church down.
its crazy that there are people who are still religious with that in mind.
Yea, same reason no one who works 40 hours a week has friends past a certain age.
This is an underrated idea. The 40+ hour work has really sandblasted our ability to form consistent habits outside the home. Everyone's schedule it utterly borked for reasons outside their control. They cant create those meaningful social bonds without being able to consistently show up to things.
I once griped to my parents and their friends about how the majority of our waking hours revolve around enriching somebody else's private company, about how most of our lifespan is spent forgoing our own ambitions for the sake of shareholders - and the Boomers just went wide-eyed in horror and said I'm too young to be talking like that.
I was 28 at the time.
They didn't deny anything I was saying. They just said I shouldn't think about it for a few decades.
My parents and their friends - their best nearly lifelong friends whom they love like family - are lucky if they can find the time off to see each other once a year.
For me, growing up from semi regular church attendance as a kid to going to college to today what turned me off was the attitude towards lgbtq and increasingly right wing political stances but also that the pews were increasingly just the blue-silver haired crowd and I kept moving from community to community. Plus I never got Sunday off. Churches rarely did anything for me, we would sing, hear a sermon, take communion, and give money to a plate and then nothing else happened. It was frustrating hearing that Jesus told us as his followers that we should take care of the hungry and refugees and then get a political sermon on how welfare is evil and we should close the borders. One time a dad tried to set me up with his 16 year old daughter (this was pre transition lol). It just wasn't for me.
I am really happy I grew up in the Church in a certain narrow sense. I at least saw my neighbors and people in my area in a place of equality and community regularly. It had a lot of issues and bad gross stuff as I am sure we all know about (morally, physically, spiritually, you name it), but I think it was a fundamental part of my leftist philosophy forming.
Idea that America has turned Church as social status and “luxury” social club is bonkers. Modern life is incompatible with Christian values and principles as well as being incompatible with just living. Capital turns everything an economic unit, even God and community
It's disgusting. I went to my grandma's church a year ago or so and the pastor literally told us all to pray for: The fucking military... the fucking police... and the fucking politicians... yet we didn't pray for the poor or the war-torn or the suffering homeless population.. Like wtf. This isn't Christianity, this is unironic Satanism lol. Everyone worships the capitalist state. I jut don't know what is to be done about the state of the church. We need a reformation or something smh..
I feel that 100% man. I remember even as a boy that hearing to send prayers up for the "warriors" in the military and not for some sort of amorphous "peace" hit me weird. It was right during the invasion of Iraq and my youth pastor was telling us to pray that soldiers and such would return safely. I remember asking him one-on-one after we why we didn't pray for peace and he didn't really answer. I remember that just being something I couldn't grapple with for a while. Fast-forward to now with all my leftist understanding and better understanding, I see just how the seeds of todays Christo-fash were planted and bare vile fruit today. It's real bad man.
Everyone worships the capitalist state
They worship it see it's harsh punishment to the poor as "divine" justice. It sucks so much.
This. And you cannot convince these Evangelicals and mega-church people that what they're supporting is wrong. It's even impossible for me to relate to my Christian family members, one of my cousins listens to fucking Joel Osteen vomits profusely. And as you say, these people see the suffering of the poor as divine justice for irresponsibility or whatever is evil and cruel. They have forgotten the lesson of the Good Samaritan. They are like the Rabbis who just walked on past the man dying in the street. What's also wild is how capitalism literally promotes the same values the Bible describes the devil having, and our whole society and fabricated pop culture pushes neoliberal propaganda on kids. Meanwhile, in school we tell the kids to be kind, courteous, honest, etc. but when they grow up and realize the world doesn't work that way, they get cynical and decide to take what they can in this dog-eat-dog system. I just wish Christians like us had a real voice in society so people would know we don't stand for injustice, bigotry, and war like the fundamentalists do. Anyway, sorry for rambling but I get really passionate about this lol
I just wish Christians like us had a real voice in society so people would know we don't stand for injustice, bigotry, and war like the fundamentalists do. Anyway, sorry for rambling but I get really passionate about this
Never apologize for caring about injustice, caring is cool. No amount of post-post-post irony internet brain poisoning will change that. You good man
incompatible? (sorry not trying to be correction jerk, just want to make sure of meaning since used twice)
I am typing on my phone. It automatically autocorrected. I hate this thing so much. Thanks for the correction! I’ll clean up the original post
I stopped going to church because pokemon was on on sundays and also i didn't believe in god
I also think the behaviour of the church and the way it inexplicably tied itself to right wing politics and the monarchy (in my country) is a big part. They ask why have people stopped coming - come on man you know why you just don't want to address it because you worship capital before God
Yeah there's currently a huge split among American Methodists right now, which was a church founded to basically be "normal default Christians" and not embroiled within deeper theological or political questions.
They're tearing themselves apart over gay and trans issues. Half of the Methodists want to just stop hearing/talking about it, the other half want to start their own explicitly conservative version of Methodism. It's making a lot of people simply disinterested in going to church, going from what I'm hearing from Methodists.
My in-laws are Methodists and I got in a little trouble with my wife a while back for inquiring with my MIL about whether their family's church was staying with the "progressives who aren't bigots are a minority that is tolerated" branch of the church or schisming with the "if you allow a minority of non-homophobic/transphobic Methodists to remain in the church, eventually they'll overthrow the conservatives" branch.
I did phrase it a little more diplomatically of course.
I actually still don't know which they are.
I actually still don't know which they are.
I think a lot of church members are confused too, since the whole reason they became Methodists instead of explicitly bigoted Baptists or Pentecostals was to avoid this kind of church politics in the first place.
I doubt it'll get handled democratically either. Methodists are just gonna show up to church one day to see a sign saying "no wokeness allowed" because their preacher joined the openly bigoted side
If they can afford to. My understanding is that joining the openly bigoted side means that they have to pay a bunch of fees to the national branch, which most of them probably can't afford to due to declining membership.
Local bigoted institution goes bankrupt is also an acceptable outcome though
ok my bet is the side that costs more money will loose that's normally how religious schisms settle
It seems like breaking right would really make them vulnerable to vandalism if they already need to pay a fee that they can't afford just to try it.
My grandma is a Methodist and has been going to church every Sunday for the past 80 years. This year she stopped going because according to her it's constantly brought up and argued about. She's the old fashioned "I don't care and I don't want to hear about it" type when it comes to LGBT which is about as good as you can expect from her age group. I guess there's some pot stirrers in her congregation that keep trying to push everyone rightward and it's tiring her poor old heart out. I am very anti Christianity but I can't help but feel bad for her since she's losing one of the only consistent things she's had her whole life.
I feel really sorry for your grandma. I hope she has some other kind of social circle, or that she's still close with family
I live in a very liberal area at the moment, and there's a Church near me with a sign saying "everyone welcome" and the gay/trans pride flag on it. Most people obviously still don't attend weekly, but I've talked to people that say they would never have attended for Easter or anything in the first place if it wasn't for the church making it clear they preach tolerance.
I grew up Methodist, but once my parents started working weekends, that just stopped entirely.
I feel like the internet is replacing the function of what churches used to be, which were the primary social activity of any given location. They were where you'd find work, find a spouse, make friends. They were a genuine third location to have some connection to your community.
They were also places for kids to get abused and for insane reactionaries to feel validated. I guess it's a mixed bag. But churches just aren't operating as that third location anymore. People can go online for community at this point. Is that better? Probably not.
I guess it's also easier now to research alternate religious opinions, or to see them at least. My cousins who grew up fundamentalist had no clue other religions existed until everyone became Islamophobic after 9/11.
They were also places for kids to get abused and for insane reactionaries to feel validated
damn the internet really has replaced them completely then huh
Before 9/11, I thought the only 3 religions were Judaism, Christianity, and Asian.
And I thought Christianity was about a guy named Christian.
Love the notion of giving a fuck about God exactly one hour a week and no other time
I seriously hope there’s eternal damnation that disagree with me
Don't forget the Bible studies right after work, you should really attend... You do love God, don't you?
"Mom, I don't have to go to church because the Kingdom of God is Within Me. Have you read any Tolstoy at all?? Jeeze."
IMO the main reason the church has spectacularly failed is because the true and revolutionary message of Christ has been utterly inverted into Unironic Satanism; the worship of capital, military, police, politicians, and state institutions. Reminds me of a quote from Nietzsche (I know cringe, but bear with me): "As soon as a religion becomes dominant, it has at once as its enemies those who would have been its first followers." Now, what does this mean? It means that Christianity was never meant to be a mainstream religion, it is a slave religion for the oppressed and a tool to escape the shackles of oppression. It was never meant to intermingle with those in the heights of worldly power. The coopting of Christianity by Emperor Constantine of Rome was the worst thing that could've ever happened to Jesus' message. Christianity was never meant to be imposed on other or used as a nationalist symbol. Just as Lenin spoke of revolutionaries and how reactionaries would dull their message and soften their image, and present that image to the people to appease them (think of MLK).
I found what I think is the true nature of the original church in rehab of all places. The culture of my 30-day rehab was one of acceptance and understanding. There were people from all walks of life and class, but we were all brought low by addiction, rendering us equal in sin. It produced a humility and openness that doesn't exist in the outside world. I believe the sacrament of Confession was originally meant to be like sharing in AA or NA. We admit our sins to each other, not to a priest. In this way, the rehab culture reminded me of a socialist society and God I miss it so much. It was the only time I ever really felt apart of something. Anyway, We need to build a new church, yes we need a reformation and it will be a fight against the reactionaries who will call us false Christians, but didn't Jesus fight the Pharisees? It is our duty now to denounce all reactionary Christians as what they are: Pharisees.
Interesting you mention Nietzsche (who in a way admired Christ), who also said that 'there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross'.
That's true! I always like to mention Nietzsche when discussing christianity since he is its greatest critic. I feel like it's important to acknowledge his arguments, reactionary as they may be.
Just shooting from the hip here, but what if it’s also because church blows
I was raised a catholic. Catholic masses are the most painfully boring shit you could possibly imagine.
Every part is almost the same every time, even the part where the priest has a free-form sermon is the most bland shit imaginable. Sometimes some churches have "funny" and "down-to-earth" priests that spice things up a tiny bit but overall it's all horribly boring.
Such a system leaves precious little time or energy for forms of community that don’t contribute to one’s own professional life or, as one ages, the professional prospects of one’s children. Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.
Unless you come up with a new kind of church, a church of work.
You know shits going downhill when the protestants can't be bothered to go to church anymore lol
It's about perceived values. Attending church in the former society was of personal value because it raised your connection and status in society. In this work culture it does not, unless of course you create a new church of work that does provide some sort of value and status to your professional life.
This thought isn't entirely fleshed out but there I am quite sure that this gap can be bridged with some creativity.
TBH I don't think it's any one thing. I was raised Methodist and we basically stopped going because my parents didn't care enough to go. It's not like there was any status associated with our tiny church, or that they liked/disliked the people there; it's just that no one wanted to spend an hour in church every Sunday.
I think it varies from person to person, though. Some people stop because of abuse or disgust with the church. Some people have a sudden moment where they realize it's all fake. Some people just don't care.
it's just that no one wanted to spend an hour in church every Sunday.
But the point here is that this is because previously they got something out of it, because society was different. Whereas now there is no perceived value other than the virtue of being a churchgoer, which is not really seen as one in wider society. The value beyond this that it previously created has gone.
I stopped and left religion because the church I went to as a kid was very hateful towards the other (be it the gays, the Muslims, black people, the teenagers), as well as anti science. Not American though.
