Hot take but I bet they wouldn't have replaced it if somebody hadn't chosen to invade them (on whatever reason).
The whole idea is to bolster national identity in an attempt to boost morale, which is what every normal country does during wartime (doesn't mean I am d'accord with it because it's effectively trying to erase / replace history, but at the same time I think it's an understandable move from a logical point of view)
And I'm struggling with the word "Nazi", may it be in the Ukrainian, Russian and Chinese context. They all just differ so much from the Nazis, that they are not comparable in any way. The Nazis built concentration caps to enslave / murder millions of Jews and political opponents. Something modern Russians, Chinese and Ukrainians aren't doing in as far as can be CERTAINLY said (or at least aren't doing to the extent the Nazis did). "Nazi" is just a word that gets thrown way too early but fact is that the Nazis were WAY WORSE than the Ukrainians, Russians and Chinese are today.
Imo this war is totally unnecessary, and a complete waste of resources and humans. And those who are hit the worst are the poor families whilst the rich are profiting (just like always). Here's a line from "Der Heimliche Aufmarsch" written by "Ernst Busch": "Das ist der Krieg der Herrscher der Welt, gegen die Arbeiterklasse!" (Translated: "This is the war of the rulers from the world, against the worker's class!") and it is very fitting.
To sum up this war in one sentence: "Putin is bitching against the West, they are bitching back and poor plebs are biting the dust for it. And let me be clear about something very important: Are the Ukrainians Nazis? - No! Are there ukrainian Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, there are! Are the Russians Nazis? - No! Are there Russian Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, there are! Are there Nazis / radical nationalists in western democracies? - Yes, there are! Do both Ukrainian and Russian officials love to take pictures with their country's Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, they BOTH enjoy that. Vlad for example loves to shake hands with his favourite radical nationalist motorcycle gang, doesn't he? *wink...
Anyways the world isn't black and white, so is this war. Sometimes the media just wants to push us towards a side (even if that is due to a lack of information or because information gets swallowed upon summoning a topic up. And yes, information can also get swallowed intentionally.) In any case it is important to build their own opinion instead of just blindly repeating media buzz words like "Ugronazis" or "the evil "...
If one thing is for sure: in a few decades we'll look back and be like: "we were so stupid to fight over this... But that moment will come after the realization of just how unnecessary it all has been"
My honest opinion: Why don't we just host a hunger games session: winner takes Donbass & Crimea. No hiding in a bunker just a team deathmatch: Putin and his gang vs Selensky, Biden and their gang. (Radical nationalists on both sides are welcome to die there too). Visitor entry 's free for all innocent people who have lost their home, body abilities, minds or loved ones in this conflict.
Hot take but I bet they wouldn't have replaced it if somebody hadn't chosen to invade them (on whatever reason).
Seems kinda debatable, Ukraine has had a thing for removing Soviet symbols for a long time now, so although the war might have expedited things a little I think it probably would have happened at some point anyway.
Fuck off, Ukrainians fought the Nazis harder than anybody except the Russians. More Ukrainians were partisans than joined either the OUN or UPA. 7 million Ukrainians fought to liberate Europe from fascism, you're literally commentating on an article about a monument built to honor their sacrifice.
Being generous, I think he means a segment of them were very distinctly Nazis and saying that group "differs so much from Nazis" is silly. I do agree that it is doing the Banderite's work for them to pretend that the Banderites were ever the most popular faction when that is a modern invention in both readings of the phrase.
The fact that the national identity of Ukraine has shifted so heavily into being anti-soviet and pro-OUN is a shame. Ukraine is actively erasing their own history to placate the west in hopes of access to the global capitalist pie for their upper class.
So if Putin loses the death match it's fine then for the richest westerners to pillage (again) the people of Russia (like they never stopped doing to an "independent" Ukraine) and to set up a bunch of military bases on the border with China. You're analysis has no historical context other than somewhat acknowledging that the cold war is bad for the working class. This isn't a 2-way street.
Wrong, they began doing this sort of shit before the invasion, right after the Nazis took power in the 2014 coup. And they are actual literal Nazis, it makes no sense at all to equivocate by lumping them together with Russia and China (China, really? Wtf lol).
Are the Ukrainians Nazis? - No! Are there ukrainian Nazis / radical nationalists?
They had a fascist coup in 2014, what followed was nazis being empowered throughout government and military offices. The merging of nazi brigades into the military officially, fascist policy, fascist education, the revision of history, the honouring of fascist historical figures as "heroes" (Stepan Bandera being the most well known of which), and none of this has changed since. Early on in the war they banned all political parties except for the existing ruling party and the fascist parties.
In particular, the attitudes that gradually improved are the ones towards Ivan Mazepa (44% in 2012 and 76% in 2022), Simon Petliura (26% in 2012 and 49% in 2022) and Stepan Bandera (22% in 2012 and 74% in 2022).
Stepan Bandera was leader of the OUN, which killed tens of thousands of jews during the holocaust and was regarded by the Nazi SS as extreme and particularly brutal even by their standards. What you MUST understand about this shift in perception is that this is like making Hitler popular in Germany again by remaking the education system, changing how you promote him and creating/promoting glorious stories of him as an important figure and hero of modern Germany. This shift has been led by fascists throughout government who are categorically not good people.
My honest opinion: Why don't we just host a hunger games session: winner takes Donbass & Crimea. No hiding in a bunker just a team deathmatch: Putin and his gang vs Selensky, Biden and their gang. (Radical nationalists on both sides are welcome to die there too). Visitor entry 's free for all innocent people who have lost their home, body abilities, minds or loved ones in this conflict.
Why don't we let the people of Donbas and Crimea decide for themselves what they want to do?
Which leaves us with a puzzle: Wouldn’t one or two or 3.5 million famine-related deaths be enough to make an anti-Stalinist argument? Why seize a wildly inflated figure that can’t possibly be supported? The answer tells much ahout the Ukrainian nationalist cause, and about those who abet it.
“They’re always looking to come up with a number bigger than six million,” observed Eli Rosenbaum, general counsel for the World Jewish Congress. “It makes the reader think: ‘My god, it’s worse than the Holocaust.’ ”
In its original statement of purpose in 1929, the OUN betrays a raw Nazi influence: “Do not hesitate to commit the greatest crime, if the good of the Cause demands it … Aspire to expand the strength, riches, and size of the Ukrainian State even by means of enslaving foreigners.” This sentiment was echoed in a 1941 letter to the German Secret Service from the OUN’s dominant Bandera wing: “Long live greater independent Ukraine without Jews, Poles, and Germans. Poles behind the [river] San, Germans to Berlin, Jews to the gallows.”
Not surprisingly, Ukrainian émigrés are among the harshest and most powerful critics of Nazi-hunting. They have sought to kill both the Justice Department’s Office of Special Investigations and the Canadian Deschenes Commission — and with good reason. Sol Littman, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Toronto, recently presented the commission with the names of 475 suspected Nazi collaborators. He reports that Ukrainians were “very heavily represented” on the list.
It may not be sheer coincidence that faminology took wing just after the OSI was commissioned in 1979. For here was a way to rehabilitate fascism- — to prove that Ukrainian collaborators were helpless victims, caught between the rock of Hitler and Stalin’s hard place. To wit, this bit of psycho-journalism from the 33 March 24 Washington Post, in a story on accused war criminal John “Ivan the Terrible” Demjanjuk: “The pivotal event in Demjanjuk’s childhood was the great famine of the early 1930s, conceived by Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin as a way of destroying the independent Ukrainian peasantry … Several members of [Demjanjuk’s] family died in the catastrophe.”
Coupled with the old nationalist canard of “Judeo-Bolshevism,” faminology could help justify anti-Semitism, collaboration, even genocide. An eye for an eye; a Nazi holocaust in return for a “Jewish famine.”
Just as the Nazis used the OUN for their own ends, so has Reagan exploited the famine, from his purple-prosed commemoration of “this callous act” to his backing of the Mace commission. Faced with failing fascist allies around the world, from Nicaragua to South Africa, the U.S. war lobby needs to boost anti-Communism as never before. Public enthusiasm to fight for the contras will not come easy. But if people could be convinced that Communism is worse than fascism; that Stalin was an insane monster, even worse than Hitler; that the seven million died in more unspeakable agony than the six million …. Well, we just might be set up for the next Gulf of Tonkin. One cannot appease an Evil Empire, after all.
You are ignoring that groups like Azov, which are explicitly neonazi, are part of Ukraine's military in an official capacity. Russia hires Nazi mercenaries, but it does not have Nazi divisions within its own government (though there are cliques that are personally/conspiratorially fascist). There is also the issue of Stepen Bandera being the national hero and defended in all sorts of ways (including Holocaust denial) by the Ukrainian government. Putin and friends are cynical mafiosos, but they aren't out there denying that the Tsar did pogroms.
I have no idea what you are talking about with China unless you are just upset at some Chinese media talking about the Nazi problem in Ukraine.
Also, as others said, let the people of Donbas and Crimea decide. Oh wait, they kind of did, and it turned out that they didn't like the government that was ethnically discriminating against them.
Listen, you absolute schmuck. Putin shaking hands with a Russian Radical Nationalist biker gang is a fundementally different relationship than the Ukrainians having people who literally valorize Nazi collaborators in WWII in your upper echelon military brass, while simultaneously privatizing all of their state's assets to American and European corporations. I'm not saying that Putin is 'good', but pretending that 'Russian leadership is just as Nazi as Ukrainian leadership' is a completely laughable statement on it's face.
And why bother including China in this at all? We know you'll just turn on them when the media tells you to like the squealing hog that you are. Join up soldier, die to attack those Chinese Nazis!
While I disagree on some things you've said, we do both agree that the best outcome for the actual people living in Ukraine is peace. Unfortunately, the west has shown that they are not interested in peace, and would rather use the proxy war to bleed both Ukraine and Russia to the last citizen. See: Boris Johnson stepping in to sabotage peace talks, and Angela Merkel admitting in an interview that NATO had never intended to honor the Minsk agreements but were only using them to stall for time to allow Ukraine to militarize. This means that a peace settlement that leaves the current ukrainian puppet government in power is unacceptable to the russians, while one that removes them would obviously be unacceptable to the current ukrainian government. Never even mind the disputes over the territories Russia holds or even formally annexed. Sadly the war looks like it will continue until one side runs out of money and materiel, neither of which are in short supply for the US/NATO or Russia.
The community has spoken, you will be welcomed back in 10 days, but until then maybe lurk here a bit and try to knock some of your liberal brain worms out.
Or just don't come back
Edit: Received a DM from them, if you want to continue to post here just do so in good faith. Of all the other bad takes I've seen from lemmee this one was the least jingoistic and at least it's doing both sides instead of "SLAVA UKRAINE"
Hot take but I bet they wouldn't have replaced it if somebody hadn't chosen to invade them
the US-backed (Operation Aerodynamic) reactionaries that go back to Stepan Bandera, Yaroslav Stetsko, and OUN-B were itching for decades to divorce the Ukrainian nation from all pro-soviet and pro-working-class and pro-socialist iconography. The whole reason Donbass wants to separate from the West half of the country is they speak Russian, they were Russian before Khrushchev, and they've been getting ethnically cleansed in a civil war since 2014. A war that did not start with the annexation of Crimea, but in fact started with USA carrying out a barely concealed coup on behalf of Poroshenko, and pouring money into reactionary organizations who began ethnic cleansing. This conflict is not a simple mirror image of when the US does shit like invade Iraq. That's a very geopolitically illiterate interpretation that I see far too often. I think Americans are starting to ask "are we the baddies" and instead of answering in the affirmative, they desperately want a situation where they're the good guys, and they think they've found one with Russia and Ukraine. Problem is, that whole conflict has been set up as a pretense for escalation since the cold war. When Russian privatization slowed down under Putin (versus Yeltsin) the West saw that as a failure to fully become capitalist, and since then has been waging proxy wars against Russia, in Syria, in Georgia, now in Ukraine. Former soviet countries must be made to fight each other for the enrichment of the imperial core. The punishment for being Communist or even simply not Capitalist enough (i.e. having any kind of nationalized industries or natural resources, not allowing foreign direct investment, not taking IMF loans, attempting to compete with wealthier nations rather than simply be cheap labor of them) is to be balkanized, looted, and pitted against your regional neighbors.
Hot take but I bet they wouldn't have replaced it if somebody hadn't chosen to invade them (on whatever reason).
The whole idea is to bolster national identity in an attempt to boost morale, which is what every normal country does during wartime (doesn't mean I am d'accord with it because it's effectively trying to erase / replace history, but at the same time I think it's an understandable move from a logical point of view)
And I'm struggling with the word "Nazi", may it be in the Ukrainian, Russian and Chinese context. They all just differ so much from the Nazis, that they are not comparable in any way. The Nazis built concentration caps to enslave / murder millions of Jews and political opponents. Something modern Russians, Chinese and Ukrainians aren't doing in as far as can be CERTAINLY said (or at least aren't doing to the extent the Nazis did). "Nazi" is just a word that gets thrown way too early but fact is that the Nazis were WAY WORSE than the Ukrainians, Russians and Chinese are today.
Imo this war is totally unnecessary, and a complete waste of resources and humans. And those who are hit the worst are the poor families whilst the rich are profiting (just like always). Here's a line from "Der Heimliche Aufmarsch" written by "Ernst Busch": "Das ist der Krieg der Herrscher der Welt, gegen die Arbeiterklasse!" (Translated: "This is the war of the rulers from the world, against the worker's class!") and it is very fitting.
To sum up this war in one sentence: "Putin is bitching against the West, they are bitching back and poor plebs are biting the dust for it. And let me be clear about something very important: Are the Ukrainians Nazis? - No! Are there ukrainian Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, there are! Are the Russians Nazis? - No! Are there Russian Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, there are! Are there Nazis / radical nationalists in western democracies? - Yes, there are! Do both Ukrainian and Russian officials love to take pictures with their country's Nazis / radical nationalists? - Yes, they BOTH enjoy that. Vlad for example loves to shake hands with his favourite radical nationalist motorcycle gang, doesn't he? *wink...
Anyways the world isn't black and white, so is this war. Sometimes the media just wants to push us towards a side (even if that is due to a lack of information or because information gets swallowed upon summoning a topic up. And yes, information can also get swallowed intentionally.) In any case it is important to build their own opinion instead of just blindly repeating media buzz words like "Ugronazis" or "the evil "...
If one thing is for sure: in a few decades we'll look back and be like: "we were so stupid to fight over this... But that moment will come after the realization of just how unnecessary it all has been"
My honest opinion: Why don't we just host a hunger games session: winner takes Donbass & Crimea. No hiding in a bunker just a team deathmatch: Putin and his gang vs Selensky, Biden and their gang. (Radical nationalists on both sides are welcome to die there too). Visitor entry 's free for all innocent people who have lost their home, body abilities, minds or loved ones in this conflict.
Seems kinda debatable, Ukraine has had a thing for removing Soviet symbols for a long time now, so although the war might have expedited things a little I think it probably would have happened at some point anyway.
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Google Stephan Bandera statues. Ukkkraine loves Nazis like amerikkkan south loves slavers
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Fuck off, Ukrainians fought the Nazis harder than anybody except the Russians. More Ukrainians were partisans than joined either the OUN or UPA. 7 million Ukrainians fought to liberate Europe from fascism, you're literally commentating on an article about a monument built to honor their sacrifice.
Being generous, I think he means a segment of them were very distinctly Nazis and saying that group "differs so much from Nazis" is silly. I do agree that it is doing the Banderite's work for them to pretend that the Banderites were ever the most popular faction when that is a modern invention in both readings of the phrase.
The fact that the national identity of Ukraine has shifted so heavily into being anti-soviet and pro-OUN is a shame. Ukraine is actively erasing their own history to placate the west in hopes of access to the global capitalist pie for their upper class.
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Yeah that's about the level of nuance you would expect when you go into a thread with "Ukronazi" in the title
So if Putin loses the death match it's fine then for the richest westerners to pillage (again) the people of Russia (like they never stopped doing to an "independent" Ukraine) and to set up a bunch of military bases on the border with China. You're analysis has no historical context other than somewhat acknowledging that the cold war is bad for the working class. This isn't a 2-way street.
Wrong, they began doing this sort of shit before the invasion, right after the Nazis took power in the 2014 coup. And they are actual literal Nazis, it makes no sense at all to equivocate by lumping them together with Russia and China (China, really? Wtf lol).
They had a fascist coup in 2014, what followed was nazis being empowered throughout government and military offices. The merging of nazi brigades into the military officially, fascist policy, fascist education, the revision of history, the honouring of fascist historical figures as "heroes" (Stepan Bandera being the most well known of which), and none of this has changed since. Early on in the war they banned all political parties except for the existing ruling party and the fascist parties.
This video contains some highlights of the last few years.
If you don't believe nazism is still in power in this government here is the Secretary of Defense saying that asians are not human only a few days ago.
And if that's not enough? Here is a major Ukrainian polling agency demonstrating the effect of nazis being in power in Ukraine. In 2012 support for Stepan Bandera was only 22%. Today, after the changes and promotion of his fascist beliefs, the lionisation of him and the remaking of Ukraine into an ultranationalist nation, that support is now 74%. Quote:
Stepan Bandera was leader of the OUN, which killed tens of thousands of jews during the holocaust and was regarded by the Nazi SS as extreme and particularly brutal even by their standards. What you MUST understand about this shift in perception is that this is like making Hitler popular in Germany again by remaking the education system, changing how you promote him and creating/promoting glorious stories of him as an important figure and hero of modern Germany. This shift has been led by fascists throughout government who are categorically not good people.
Why don't we let the people of Donbas and Crimea decide for themselves what they want to do?
Because that would be the same as Russia winning!
Originally published January 12, 1988
https://www.villagevoice.com/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/
You are ignoring that groups like Azov, which are explicitly neonazi, are part of Ukraine's military in an official capacity. Russia hires Nazi mercenaries, but it does not have Nazi divisions within its own government (though there are cliques that are personally/conspiratorially fascist). There is also the issue of Stepen Bandera being the national hero and defended in all sorts of ways (including Holocaust denial) by the Ukrainian government. Putin and friends are cynical mafiosos, but they aren't out there denying that the Tsar did pogroms.
I have no idea what you are talking about with China unless you are just upset at some Chinese media talking about the Nazi problem in Ukraine.
Also, as others said, let the people of Donbas and Crimea decide. Oh wait, they kind of did, and it turned out that they didn't like the government that was ethnically discriminating against them.
Listen, you absolute schmuck. Putin shaking hands with a Russian Radical Nationalist biker gang is a fundementally different relationship than the Ukrainians having people who literally valorize Nazi collaborators in WWII in your upper echelon military brass, while simultaneously privatizing all of their state's assets to American and European corporations. I'm not saying that Putin is 'good', but pretending that 'Russian leadership is just as Nazi as Ukrainian leadership' is a completely laughable statement on it's face.
And why bother including China in this at all? We know you'll just turn on them when the media tells you to like the squealing hog that you are. Join up soldier, die to attack those Chinese Nazis!
deleted by creator
If there was a funeral that needed to be dronestruck, it's this one
While I disagree on some things you've said, we do both agree that the best outcome for the actual people living in Ukraine is peace. Unfortunately, the west has shown that they are not interested in peace, and would rather use the proxy war to bleed both Ukraine and Russia to the last citizen. See: Boris Johnson stepping in to sabotage peace talks, and Angela Merkel admitting in an interview that NATO had never intended to honor the Minsk agreements but were only using them to stall for time to allow Ukraine to militarize. This means that a peace settlement that leaves the current ukrainian puppet government in power is unacceptable to the russians, while one that removes them would obviously be unacceptable to the current ukrainian government. Never even mind the disputes over the territories Russia holds or even formally annexed. Sadly the war looks like it will continue until one side runs out of money and materiel, neither of which are in short supply for the US/NATO or Russia.
Aaaaaaannnnnnnnddddddd
The community has spoken, you will be welcomed back in 10 days, but until then maybe lurk here a bit and try to knock some of your liberal brain worms out.
Or just don't come back
Edit: Received a DM from them, if you want to continue to post here just do so in good faith. Of all the other bad takes I've seen from lemmee this one was the least jingoistic and at least it's doing both sides instead of "SLAVA UKRAINE"
the US-backed (Operation Aerodynamic) reactionaries that go back to Stepan Bandera, Yaroslav Stetsko, and OUN-B were itching for decades to divorce the Ukrainian nation from all pro-soviet and pro-working-class and pro-socialist iconography. The whole reason Donbass wants to separate from the West half of the country is they speak Russian, they were Russian before Khrushchev, and they've been getting ethnically cleansed in a civil war since 2014. A war that did not start with the annexation of Crimea, but in fact started with USA carrying out a barely concealed coup on behalf of Poroshenko, and pouring money into reactionary organizations who began ethnic cleansing. This conflict is not a simple mirror image of when the US does shit like invade Iraq. That's a very geopolitically illiterate interpretation that I see far too often. I think Americans are starting to ask "are we the baddies" and instead of answering in the affirmative, they desperately want a situation where they're the good guys, and they think they've found one with Russia and Ukraine. Problem is, that whole conflict has been set up as a pretense for escalation since the cold war. When Russian privatization slowed down under Putin (versus Yeltsin) the West saw that as a failure to fully become capitalist, and since then has been waging proxy wars against Russia, in Syria, in Georgia, now in Ukraine. Former soviet countries must be made to fight each other for the enrichment of the imperial core. The punishment for being Communist or even simply not Capitalist enough (i.e. having any kind of nationalized industries or natural resources, not allowing foreign direct investment, not taking IMF loans, attempting to compete with wealthier nations rather than simply be cheap labor of them) is to be balkanized, looted, and pitted against your regional neighbors.