Still new here and trying to figure things out. Regarding voting, I'd like to get some feedback on some thoughts I've had.
I get that voting D/R is pointless since Ds just seatwarm for Rs at best, and actively implement R policies at worst. They have no incentive to work for left policies, and R policies will ultimately benefit them personally.
That being said, we're "punished" for not voting D by getting an actual insane R in office. If Rs are in control its way worse, right? or, maybe it has to get worse to get better?
So what is the dominant strategy here for National elections? My personal vote is extremely minor and unimportant so keeping that in mind, I can:
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not vote - Lower participation rate shows I don't endorse the system, and if enough people don't vote, does it mean anything?
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vote third party - I like this idea since, although super unlikely, it gives more pressure to D and R to moderate (lol) as neither want to lose power. Write in votes aren't going to turn in to anything big without some serious organizing, but I don't know if there's ever been a serious attempt to organize a mass write in campaign? Or if there will even be a viable third party candidate in 2024?
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vote D - 🤮
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Something else?
I haven't seen this discussed much in the short time I've been here so maybe I'm missing something obvious or misunderstanding something above, so would appreciate any help. Maybe the real answer is it really doesn't matter, but would like to make the best limited choice I can
You need to still vote Democrat. Even if they aren't perfect, they're still better than letting a Republican in. Republicans always vote.
If Democrats can run on "not Republican" and simply be entitled to enough votes by that mere fact, they have no reason to ever make concessions to the left. This is affirmed by the continuous movement to the right on the part of Dems except in the language they use in their empty gestures. If a leftist spoiler fucks things up for them one election, they have reason to make concessions to take back that spoiler's base.
If you're in a fight, it's often good to use your hands to block, but if focusing only on that prevents you from striking back, all you are succeeding in is losing more slowly than otherwise.
Tbf they're not going to make concessions regardless because the Dems looove losing and hate doing anything remotely left-wing
Then keep building up the spoiler until it supplants them.
If the left is ever to be a genuine alternative to the Democratic party it's not going to be because you didn't voot Democrat in national elections but because of real organising (with a little help from shifting material conditions of course)
I agree but we need to block until we can strategize, build class consciousness, and actually organize to do something.
it's easier to organize when the Rs are in charge, from personal experience.
That's terrifying. It will allow so many people to be hurt even faster in the meantime.
even faster? the dems just continue the same policies. you just stop hearing about it. among latine communities, Obama was known as the deporter in chief, and he spearheaded the detention cells housing children. if anything, Trump was /less/ effective because it became a political issue libs were willing to discuss/fight back against.
How are they better? I dont find the way they are better
I'm going to challenge you on the assertion that Dems are better than Republicans. How is a Dem better than a republican? There is a long list of things that the Dems have continued since Trump (and before!) that maybe they didn't implement themselves but they could have stopped and they have chosen not to. How is a Dem better?
At least Dems aren't spewing as much hate for minorities. Also, the infrastructure bill Biden implemented was actually pretty good. Republicans want to actively dismantle things like the Environmental Protection Agency. If there was another option that had a chance of winning I would vote for them. We need to figure out a way to build that. Until then, we need to at least delay the worst of it.
"As much" is doing a lot of work there.
This bill? The one where they didn't make it adjust for inflation or actually force states to comply? As cool as that bill may be it isn't enough. Most of the projects haven't even started and there is no guarantee that they will. Especially if they lose the house. That funding over the same time (ten years) is barely more than the military budget and that is only true if the budget stays where it was which it didn't and won't. Some of that funding may also be going to sodium cyanide landmines which was something I only heard about recently but has been going on since 2014, thanks Obama.
They aren't even in power and they're doing it anyways.
As it stands right now the Dems (barely, but still in hand) have congress and the executive. They have the senate by enough to ram judges through to get whatever they want from the courts but they won't for petty reasons like decorum. Petty especially in the light of losing the right to an abortion, losing right to equal treatment for members of the LGBTQ+ community, and curbing capacities of federal agencies. You're going to need to try harder to convince me that the Dems are better and we haven't even gotten started on foreign policy.
Edit: excuse my passive voice, the Dems could have passed laws to ensure that a right to an abortion or protections for the LGBTQ+ community were in place but did not. Saying they lost it is too passive, I should have said they, by conscious failure to act, stripped those rights
What do we actually do about this though? I want to make things better, but how? Not voting at all doesn't feel like sending a message. It feels like apathy. I also think it needs to happen with as little violence as possible. It needs to be someone that is voted in. We can't let violence decide because that always seems to end with some kind of authoritarian government.
You could always spoil your ballot. I think it might be time to remind you where you are though because violence can and has been used to get better governments, the American civil war for one but also Cuba, Vietnam, Zimbabwe off the top of my head were all improved by violent revolution against their oppressors. The Soviet Union too for that matter among others I'd hazard you are more willing to disagree with.
where's that quote about the Maoist uprising against the landlords...
What does it mean to spoil your ballot? I haven’t heard that expression before
If it's been made invalid intentionally (like idk you just scribbling all over or something)
Makes sense. Thanks for explaining
You either mark your ballot in a way that ruins it (ie writing FUCK YOU across the whole page and not actually marking a vote), physically damage your ballot, or the most fun way which is write-in a 0% viable person that is funny. I know some guys who voted for Snoop Dog in the last election to spoil their ballot. It is a way to make it known you don't like any of the options but still made time to vote.
Oh I understand now. Never heard that term. Thanks for explaining
No problem
We can't let violence decide because that always seems to end with some kind of authoritarian government? What about literally every communist revolution? Cuba, China, Vietnam, Burkina Faso, the DPRK, the USSR.
I don't think the US at this time is ready for a revolution, violent or otherwise. But, revolutionary socialism results in better material conditions for people, and all of the above are examples
All of the countries you just named are or were authoritarian.
And all of them accomplished more good than you are even suggesting in a naïve hope. You are tethered to some of the biggest war criminals in the world while being miserable about it and holding no cards, they use their authority to actually carry out their political will.
How is DPRK not authoritarian? Are you seriously standing up for that country?
Yes
The DPRK is an inspiration to the working class worldwide, proof that the evil US empire can be opposed and that a better world is possible
Ok but seriously they are starving their people and literally kill them and possibly their families if they try to leave.
It's difficult, but the reality is that in order to make a comment about the country that people here won't clown on, you kinda need to relearn the history of the country from the beginning.
It's a difficult place for many people to live, and nobody here is looking at the dprk government and thinking "we should copy/paste that in my country" or anything, but what's important is that they did successfully overthrow capitalism, and they have successfully kept it out (at a mas shitssive cost, which was primarily induced by the USA). If you want to undermine capitalism in any way, it's worth analyzing them closely and incorporating that analysis into your understanding about how capitalism could successfully be undermined or defeated in [wherever you live].
When you do this over many countries and similar political movements with a socialist history, you find that it definitely wasn't voting that got them where they are/were. Shit's interesting.
Blowback did a season on the Korean war recently that gives a lot of good historical background. What the US and Japan did to them was pretty fucked.
UN Resolution 2397:
“Strengthens the ban on providing work authorizations for DPRK nationals by requiring Member States to repatriate all DRPK nationals earning income and all DPRK government safety oversight attachés monitoring DPRK workers abroad within their jurisdiction within 24 months from 22 December 2017.”
That's the reason people can't leave the DRPK.
Thanks to Lemmygrad, I just learned about it from that post
I don't see any incentive for dems to act in our best interest though. As Rs become more and more fascist they can slide right and continue to be "better than republicans." I guess this argument is for harm reduction.
It feels like we're getting slow cooked fascism. Republicans are actively 1 upping each other on nazi dog whistles to try and let voters know what team they're on while dems do absolutely nothing - was it always like this? Is "delaying" the inevitable like not seeing the doctor for a strange lump on your neck?
Dems don't just do nothing, they actively support and give money to the most bigoted and extreme Republicans, on the basis that they think they'll be easier to beat because more people will be threatened by them. They are fascist enablers gambling with our lives and trying to win our votes through coercion, while enacting polices that fuck us.
What would "seeing the doctor" be though? Civil war? World wide war? I'm afraid that if that would happen now, the fascists would win. It seems to me that they're capable of standing together and ready to fight. People on the left don't have that. We splinter ourselves based on smaller differences instead of working together for small incremental progress. If republicans lose several elections in a row, they'll eventually figure out they have to change tactics to stay relevant and maybe things can start shifting left.
organizing people to vote as a block, so you can meaningfully hold candidates' feet to the fire. merely voting democrat because "they're not those guys" gives them carte blanche to move further and further right, as they've done for 40 years since unions basically got killed off. also read state and revolution.
Organizing takes time and we clearly haven't gotten the message out well enough yet. We need to be on the defensive until there is enough support to really change things. Most people outside of forums like this don't even understand what's happening.
so the problem won't be solved by telling random posters to vote blue. glad we're on the same page.
No but it's part of it. Idk what else I can do right now besides try to get people on the same page. I wish I had a better suggestion. Also, we aren't random posters. Being on this forum means we care more than the average person. We're more likely to actually talk about stuff like this to people in our lives.
it helps to have a real and material theory of political change before trying to get people on the same page. seconding my recommendation to read state and rev, before the brainworms become terminal.
I do plan on reading more. Out of curiosity though, what do you think an average person could do right now?
start locally - like neighborhood level, your workplace, etc.. organize the people who see you day to day and show them that it's possible to make positive change by banding together. a union drive at work, a tenants union in your apartment building, whatever. that gives you a basis on which to start pursuing real political education and to start building class consciousness. eventually, you can start politicizing the org. don't rush it, though, or you'll turn people against you.
(different person) Join or organize a labour union. If you are joining a union then you can argue for it to be more political and hostile to capital, if you need to form the union that is enough work to focus on.