- cross-posted to:
- prepper@lemm.ee
- cross-posted to:
- prepper@lemm.ee
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Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan)
Not only does it include a lot of water that isn't part of the Strait, right off of China's coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.
People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don't think Taiwan having this zone is bad -- countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby -- but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.
Yeah, obviously it's a glorified puppet state but there's no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that's all I'm saying.
It is not to exist. I don’t care about their air borders and I hope China flies wherever they please within Chinese territory like Chinese Taipei
The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.
It's going to require might and pressure and gunboat diplomacy, it's denial and liberalism to pretend colonialists just give up their holdings
The RoC won't give up their holdings in the interest of human benefit, but liberalism shows us that there are countless ways to skin a cat. The RoC is not autarkic and is very dependent on its NATO friends and its trading partners. As the US wanes and third world nations stand up, the support for Taiwanese nationalism will surely dwindle, and RoC leadership may be put in a position where their best offer is clearly to reunify.
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China -- as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the "White Terror"), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think "puppet state" is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that's its own can of worms.
I didn't really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I'm happy to discuss it as best I can.
Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.
Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its 'proper' functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.
I started writing out a timeline but I don't know what position you're asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China [...] which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.
Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the "puppet state" part. I don't think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.
if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it's a puppet state in the sense that it's propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.
I didn't see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.
Apparently being sponsored by a foreign state is now counted as being a puppet state?
Taiwan is a rump state of the despotism that existed before the Maoist revolution. When the government fled to the island, the US backed them up and prevented the revolution from purging them from power and uniting the whole country under one flag. They exist today as they are because of western intervention, and is therefore a puppet state. I disagree with 'glorified' considering it's taboo internationally to even call them a state.
Taiwhat? I Thought it was called the Republic of China, and everyone's been telling me China bad!
Cool, so lets ask the people living there (not those in power) what they want with their country.
Like asking yankoids what they want to do with "their land", the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.
The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they're just sitting there minding their own business either.
The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn't want to give up those naval bases. So, it's the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but "akctually, we're the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want" to Vietnam and Indonesia.
It's schrodinger's China. Simultaneously an independent smol bean democracy and the only legitimate inheritor of a 4000 year old empire.
Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn't agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I'm not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.
Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you'd be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.
Source: am Taiwanese
ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.
Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy
inciting conflict with your biggest trading partner does tend to have negative effects on the economy
Well yeah I guess, but really it's more about the policies they had been pushing domesticlly
i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.
Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.
Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one -- which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn't matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they're bad at their job.
If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn't going to be allowed to force the issue.
You want polls, how about this poll conducted by a Taiwanese university where the majority of Taiwanese want neither reunification nor independence, but the status quo? The majority of Taiwanese people wanting the status quo lines up with how the pro-independence party ate shit while the pro-status quo party made huge gains. The DPP got BTFO so hard the current DPP president Tsai Ing-wen had to resign as party head.
The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.
peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population)
Again, this was "forced" reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it's not by as high a margin.
Thank you for mentioning me. Makes me feel like not all people on this thread is pro-China. :D
So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now.
Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.
Anyway, people should look at this map and take note of how far Taiwan's ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC's airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.
You are obviously pro-China (...). That makes you a Chinese bot.
At long last, we've reached the molten core of psychotic liberal solipsism
"How am I being racist? I'm just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot."
This really isn't too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and "bot" as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it's also very racist.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
The term isn't being used as a pejorative. The term is being used as an adjective to a pro-chinese social media commentator. Mister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Got'em. You should post hogMister Doi Doi with NO history in lemmy.
Their account is two years old and has two years of history. Idk if that doesn't show up for you or something, but it is indeed there.
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Chinese refers to the people who live there or who's families emigrated from there, not randos online who don't support the rabid NATO line. your racism is showing.
"Yeah, I am comparing the leader of China to a yellow bear, but it is totally not racist guys. I really care about the chinese people"
Didn't take long for that one to come out, accused of being racist and immediately compares the leader of China to a yellow cartoon bear lmao. Incredible
What's wrong with Winnie the Pooh anyways? Who doesn't want to live the rest of their life eating honey and being a loving, caring member of their community?
I'm so flattered your first comment or post EVER in 3 years is to me. bye!
Is this supposed to be another example of you not being racist? Comparing the president of china to a yellow cartoon character?
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If you want to not show yourself as a bot, you should at least be creative in your racism.
You're expecting this person to know any of this history of China before 2000
Sir or Ma'am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.
My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries' internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It's only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it's not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.
Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so ~by your logic~ I should be against China, which I'm not, because I'm capable of critical thinking.
Oh, and one more thing:
You are obviously pro-China . . . That makes you a Chinese bot.
you, oh enlightened
one, could you perhaps explain to us what the word 'bot' means?That's precisely the sort of argument one would expect from a NAFO bot. Hope you earned enough FICO credit points to buy food tonight.
Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don't think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the "overclaimed" part of the ADIZ.
but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait
It says the jets did that OR were in the southwest zone. It is intentionally vague alarmism.
I literally quoted the part that you just also quoted, which specifies that some of the craft were merely in the ADIZ, the one thing I was talking about in my comment
I'm so tired of the notion that anyone not being in line with certain narratives is automatically considered a drone.
Like 6ish years ago we all, liberals and leftists together, were creeped out by the right's sudden proliferation of "NPC" memes, correctly pointing out how dehumanizing it is and conjecturing darkly about what exactly this kind of rhetoric was priming these people for. Now, the overton window's so fucked that the we've normalized deploying the exact same invective against anyone who speaks up on behalf of humanity and against a US-dominated world. I've driven past the ruins of the Japanese concentration camps out in the miserable desert, and to know that so many people around me who act self-righteous but stand for nothing would rebuild those camps at the snap of a finger, or the running of an op-ed, or a scary news story....well, these people may haughtily object to being called blue MAGA, but that sure doesn't stop them from doing absolutely fucking everything they can to earn the label.
Everyone who disagrees with me must be a bot.
I bet your response will contain one of more of the following: Winnie the Pooh, social credit, comrade, Uyghurs. Yet you call others bots, lmao.
Looks like you were correct on all of those predictions
You both quoted the same exact piece of text. You said they didn't read the article but you didn't even bother to read their comment?
You are calling a human being a bot, literally dehumanizing them, because they don't have the same hatred of China as you. You should really check yourself. You are full of hatred and ideological poison. It is clear from your comment that you have limited literacy skills and understanding, you should check out some other perspectives and try to broaden your horizons. Here is one. This is also another incredible resource with a lot of essays and information with a different perspective
the user you just replied to made their account a year ago and has an extensive post history
No no never engage their statement on it's alleged merits. Kick them in the [redacted] and then ask them why they can't walk while laughing. It is the weirding way.
We should give @RandAlThor@lemmy.ca benefit of the doubt. Sometimes when people view other's profile from another instance, the post history shows up empty.
Yeah I think that is what's happening. I've tried to explain it to them in a reply
...are you aware you can't see people's post histories if you click their username on lemmy.ca and you have to visit their home instance?
What would that have to do with anything? You should log off and touch grass, bigot.
Bro the amerikkkan navy sails it's boats there. Silence, drone.
Uhhh, that's obviously different, America is a
whitewestern country and so it owns the world
Beep boop I have been programmed to make really fucking cool historical dramas beep boop (This is my stereotype about China idk what else happens there I just really like Three Kingdoms adaptations did y'all see 2008's Red Cliff it was dope af! John Woo directing!)
MUST MAKE DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF TOM AND JERRY SHITPOSTSMUST POST MEMES OF AN AD FOR MIXUE ICE CITYMUST UPLOAD 12 GB FOLDER OF BIAOQING IMAGES
"or"
not "and", "or".
The southwestern quadrant of Taiwan's ADIZ overlaps with China's ADIZ. If anything, Taiwan is overclaiming their ADIZ.
First day? Lemmygrad brigades every worldnews thread about China or Russia.
When I am exposed to multiple people who disagree with me, that's brigading
Did you ever check out that thread on lemmygrad I made for you? You never said anything but you might have just forgotten.
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Is this that stupid shit where their air defense zone covers a huge chunk of mainland China and they freak out every time China flies Chinese planes over China?
If you actually read the article,
Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.
you would find that 10 aircrafts either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait or entered the southwestern part of the ADIZ. Neither of those is "flying over mainland China."
It is, but it was clearly done to provoke Taiwan. Calling this a moot point is like saying that laughing at homeless people is fine because it is not illegal.
If you consider China flying planes on its coastline to be unacceptable provocation, I'd love to know what you consider the USA sending ships half way around the world to that same coastline.
China did not just fly planes on its coastline. They crossed the median line, which is an unofficial line that has been dividing the Taiwan Strait for decades. Planes and vessels from China and those from Taiwan would not cross this line to show mutual respect. China is purposely breaking this unwritten convention. See how they usually just barely cross the median line, fly parallel to the line for a bit and head back? Neither are the planes passenger planes, they are fighter jets. This is different from the US sending ships through the Strait. Sending a military ship through the Strait is a provocation to China, but it is much weaker than the direct provocation of the fighter jets crossing the median line.
you realize that the uptick in frequency of these 'provocations' only started in response to the pelosi visit? the incident that had a considerable portion of the entire chinese population howling for the cpc to shoot down the plane and engulf the world in nuclear fire? this is the cpc's way of appeasing its very large and very rabid nationalist constituency (who are very disappointed that they have not died in a nuclear armageddon, btw) and it is a meme on the chinese internet that despite all of its rhetoric, this pathetic level of 'not touching you' fuckery is somehow the lowest that the cpc is willing to stoop to when faced with a de jure violation of its sovereignty.
Broke: Don't shoot down Pelosi because it would spark a war
Woke: Don't shoot down Pelosi because it means she can go back to America and speed up their decline
They crossed the median line
idk dog, the wording in the article leaves some weird wiggle room.
Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had
eithercrossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides,orentered the southwestern part of Taiwan's air defense identification zone, or ADIZ.
There's only like upwards of 200 US military bases surrounding China but it's Chinese aggression we must condemn 🤷♀️
It was very aggressive of China to put their country so close to those bases you know
The US is who was being referred to, unless you think that it's Taiwanese military bases littering the world.
Indeed. It only makes sense if Taiwan is a separate country from the PRC.
All these petty actions do is prove that Taiwan is a distinct country.
The southwestern quadrant still includes a bit of mainland China and is mostly outside of the Strait, not to mention that all of the Strait is still in the ADIZ.
okay guys , so since this hole federation stuff your Pro Imperial Wrong Takes comes my way , it must be corrected ..
this is Taiwans Air Identification Zone
Showit is a Bullshit leftover that spans so vast over china that it simply can not be not violated ,.. theirby producing the most wonderfull "Permanent - Saturaton - Propaganda" of China Bad Bakround noise for the Imperial core audience in their Echo Chambers .
PS: this is where real Journalist go in the west , when they start beeing critical of non approved subjects.
"Good thing propaganda only ever happens to other people"
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withdrawing support for Taiwan in the still-distant future.
They're going to tip the Republic of China in to the ocean as soon as they've stolen all of TSCM's productive capacity. That's all this was ever about. They're building chip fabs in Arizona right now. As soon as the US can produce it's own Chips the RoC is... going to go right back to tense but peaceful relations with the mainland like they had before DC started waving it's grand imperial [redacted] around.
Yeah, you can say in a meaningful sense that the US co-founded Taiwan. I personally think that part of the reason the US wants to recreate Taiwan's manufacturing capacity is that it makes Taiwan much more expendable, meaning it can be used for military provocations and even war (as some US generals are openly calling for or predicting) without risking the loss of an irreplaceable economic asset to the US.
How can a country intrude into its own territory? These separatists need to be put in their places.
Daily reminder that the Taiwan Province is an inalienable part of the People's Republic of China:
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And that this is recognized by the United Nations ever since 1971 after UNGAR 2758.
Source, page 546: https://web.archive.org/web/20230503050030/https://legal.un.org/unjuridicalyearbook/pdfs/english/volumes/2010.pdf
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Video of the votes happening: https://invidious.projectsegfau.lt/watch?v=sfOIEjuXFyU
Last I checked liberals are all about respecting rules and international law, so we're just holding you to your own standards here.
As an actual Chinese person, my disdain for the KMT runs a bit deeper than that.
Fuck Chiang Kai-Shek from the bottom of my heart. He pleaded for help from the CCP, then betrayed and butchered the communists who were helping him. Just look at the Shanghai massacre. He then purged anyone even vaguely left wing from the Kumingtang.
I never abandoned my ideals, they were always fuck the ROC to begin with. How do you think he lost the civil war in China? He lost popular support because he was a backstabbing vermin. He should be in a deeper layer of hell than even Reagan and Thatcher.
god it was so confusing having a prof explain this whole history while adamantly backing the KMT/ROC. I was a lib at the time so I didn't know how to process it but even then I was like wait he seems like a fucking asshole wtf is wrong with you.
Nice try, but pointing out liberals being hypocrites has nothing to do with abandoning our own ideals. What's being said is that you lot claim that's how things should work and you don't follow your own rules.
can you point to where in this thread you made any claim that can be argued with? all I see is whining about communists.
praising good things and criticizing bad ones is abandoning my ideals. I am very smart.
they're not abandoning their ideals they're pointing out that liberals only hold to their own convictions when it's convenient
"respect the rule of international law!" "ummmmmmm but not when they agree on things i don't like"
Translated:
"I CONSTANTLY SEETHE AT HEX AND GRAD FOR BEING LEFTISTS SO I JUMP AT SHADOWS, EMBARASSING MYSELF IN HOPES OF OWNING THEM!!!"
I'm not obligated to respect laws when the laws don't respect human rights. Slavery was legal at once point. The holocaust was legal at one point. Was I ever obligated to respect those laws?
The PRC objectively has a better human rights record than the RoC.
It really doesn't unless you believe the state media that's allowed to come out of it. Even then, they publicly reject any lgbt type content.
Calling it “vulgar, immoral and unhealthy content”.
Even going so far as to jail a women for 10 years for producing BL content.
There's really no reason to believe western oligarch owned media over Chinese state media. Of course, western propagandists rely on people such as yourself being already primed to believe the worst possible things about China making their work pretty easy.
The second article is AnimeNewsNetwork and they link to Chinese owned media.
Good thing you're doing sober examination and study into life in China without western bias, how it has improved real living conditions for its people, and applying that principle equally across the board
As a french dude, and given our history, I have no choice but to stand against all imperialisms. Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is. France has done that for centuries along with most of the european powers of the time. Imperialism is criminal, it is murderous, and profoundly unjust. It is nothing less than colonisation. Just let people live on their own terms.
Never, ever have I thought I'd see the words "台灣是中國神聖不可分割的一部分" in English being used unironically.
So...you thought sharing a common language precluded having differing opinions? That's kinda astonishing, ngl
To be honest I never thought I'd see those words even in Chinese being used unironically either.
You thought no Chinese people supported the One China Policy? Seriously?
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LETS GOOOOOOOOOO LONG LIVE THE PRC WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
ONE CHINA
BEST CHINA
harder
