On a somewhat similar subject, you know what's fucked up? I was interacting with this weirdo online who asked me why I'm a feminist, but here's the catch: he assumed that I'm a cisgender man in the process for some reason. In no way, shape, or form did I even indicate that I am a cis man.
Simply put, I explained to him some very surface-level ideologically feminist shit about seeing a lot of value in advocating for women's rights and tearing down the construct of patriarchy as a whole, and with that assumption that I am a cis man saying these things, he baselessly accused me of only saying that to try to "simp" for women and supporting feminism with ulterior motives to have sex with them.
Two points:
That assumption is so wrong that it's laughable; I'm a transfeminine non-binary person who could directly benefit from the abolition of patriarchy as an individual.
It scares the shit out of me that, even if I were a cis man, the only way this asshole could interpret someone being a male feminist is the automatic assumption that they are pretending to be so just to exploit women for sex. This is actually concerning (and obviously projection) because it shows that there are men who'd go as far to believe that it's out of the perception of a man to simply just support feminism for the sake of agreeing with it ideologically, like "You think women should have rights? No way a man could possibly ever think that! You're just hoping they'll sleep with you for saying that!"
Yeah this has to be extremely prevalent. Whenever I see a couple whose socio-political beliefs are counter to each other, I wonder how anyone could spend their lives with people who ideologically hate them…
It would make sense that it was a bait and switch and sunken cost kicked in. “Stay together for the kids” type situations or worse.
I absolutely have no idea how these people make it work. I couldn't date anyone to the right of democratic socialism, and even that may be being generous. Truly revolutionary, radical leftists are obviously what I'm hoping for.
My wife is more of a left-lib or a social democrat then anything else, but then so was I when we met. It's doable if you are compatible in other ways. Although I certainly understand wanting to prioritize politics, it's also sadly true that having good politics doesn't necessarily make someone compatible with you for a variety of other reasons, and (only speaking for myself) people who I really connect with on a deep level and who I am also romantically interested in are already exceedingly rare.
I agree, but this is kind of a "squares and rectangles" type of deal for me. Although not everyone who aligns with my politics will be compatible with me, anyone who is truly compatible with me will have a decent degree of alignment with my politics.
I speak from experience, as my former partner with whom I recently broke up was a lot more libby than I am for sure, and that was a major contributing factor to our breakup, among other things. I had no doubt that she had her heart in the right place for whatever she believed politically, but it's something that I just could not see myself having any negotiability on. Mind you, I loved and admired her very deeply, but once these differences entered the frame, that love began to dwindle more and more with time.
Everyone's different in how they handle their own view of compatibility, so it's not something that could be universally applicable across all people in the dating scene. Some people will care a lot about having political compatibility to a point where anything else is a dealbreaker, and others are a lot more relaxed about it, to a point where I've heard of socialists dating conservatives.
For me? My existence is insanely "political," being black, neurodivergent, non-binary, pansexual, transfeminine, etc. These intersections politicized my existence so much that I wasn't able to hate myself or even remotely perceive myself as a human being deserving of basic rights and respect until I embraced radical leftism, and I'd like nothing besides a partner who espouses the same or similar ideals.
others are a lot more relaxed about it, to a point where I've heard of socialists dating conservatives.
This is something I truly cannot imagine
These intersections politicized my existence so much that I wasn't able to hate myself or even remotely perceive myself as a human being deserving of basic rights and respect until I embraced radical leftism, and I'd like nothing less than a partner who espouses the same or similar ideals.
Totally understandable! I hope you find the radical partner of your dreams
Agreed, back when I was using dating apps I had to make it clear what I was on about politically because I wasn’t gonna waste my time going on dates with anyone that didn’t allign with me.
Though I can understand wariness around men for sure, I'm not entirely sure if female separatism is anything but a niche. It frightens me too because it often comes with bioessentialist ideas that are not only transphobic but homophobic and biphobic as well. It's also an overwhelmingly white tendency as well, ignoring that the racism that women of color experience from white "feminists" makes separatism not as ideal as it is in the shortsighted view of privileged liberal white women.
Also, to be honest, I don't know if any female separatist organizations put into practice were ever actually trans-inclusive, and even if they were, it raises concerning questions when you go beyond trans women and start thinking about where trans men and non-binary people factor into that kind of stuff. Excluding trans men, for instance, is "affirming," but it neglects the fact that they are deeply oppressed by patriarchy despite being men.
Female separatism has always had this "women distancing themselves from men" standpoint without a coherent analysis of intersectionality across race and genderqueer identity, and it has even consisted of heterosexual women who feign lesbianism especially since the height of such movements took place during a time where people didn't properly comprehend that sexual orientation is not a choice.
Some women of color have made this criticism that I made about race regarding the fact that white women are members of a privileged race, so they themselves do not need to find solidarity in fighting against living through racism, but women of color absolutely need to do that, and that often means finding solidarity in fighting racism with men who are the same marginalized race as them. This is why womanist groups were seldom, if ever, fond of separatism to give an example.
I was out with some colleagues, most of them younger than me. there was a discussion about their husbands doing dumb stuff and how they, as a couple, had already had "the talk" about how their lives were far too entertwined with multiple kids, assets and finances to ever consider divorce anymore. it was so grim to me. I made a joke about "Metal Marriage... til DEATH do us part" and got laughs.
also, being older, I've known people who said the same shit and were divorced like 5 years later.
as a child of divorced parents, the way some people talk about their marriages gives me anxiety.
It starts before you can even read. Even as a wee lad I remember any time I interacted with girls, my parents or some other parents would make a stupid comment about us dating. This shit happened all the way through high school. I never understood it, like why can't I just be friends with them?
Then the majority of those wee lads grow up into men that have known women as nothing more than some thing to be acquired.
Well, the second point exists because there ARE men that solely support women's rights because they want to have casual sex with them. I know, I've met them in bars and it is pretty clear their support for women's liberation is literally only skin deep, as in they only seek women's sexual liberation so that more women will want to have sex with them. It's somewhere in the line of 'All women are either whores or angels', and they are looking to create more angels (women who want to sleep with them).
Now, that being said, these kinds of guys are pretty few and far between, but are seen as ubiquitous and constant voices driving the discourse within media (see South Park, Metalocalypse, and multiple sitcoms such as Two and a Half Men or 30 Rock). I'd go so far as to say that for the past 30 years or so, that has been the mainstream and online comedy trope about male feminists. Once again, people have mistaken the heightened voice of a media archetype written primarily by non-feminist voices as feminist. Literally mixing up reality and media fantasy.
Edit: It's not nearly as prevalent as 'guy who completely misrepresents his politics to his girlfriend', but that rarely gets talked about.
I hate to admit it, but you're right. I find that's exactly why this loser immediately jumped to such a conclusion. These kinds of men will project this mentality because of them thinking "If I identified as a feminist, I'd definitely be doing it to be deceptive of women." Not so coincidentally, these are the same men that accuse feminism of being a "female supremacist" or "man-hating movement." Like, my brother in Christ, if you don't want women to hate you, stop being so damn hateable.
Yeah, I ground all of my criticisms of mainstream bourgeoisie feminism within feminist theory, but that is very confusing to the majority of cishet men, who because of having been fed hundreds of hours of propaganda, have absolutely zero idea what actual feminism even is, looks like or sounds like. I honestly feel like an asshole sometimes for even criticizing it, but a consumerist non-liberatory feminist position doesn't actually help anybody dismantle patriarchy so idk what to do.
Yeah, men are always projecting their hatred of women into other men all the time.
As a very intersectional enby, I'm always critical of bourgeois liberal feminism for obvious reasons. It's so shortsighted, unhelpful, and has no coherent sense of theory that will truly liberate all who suffer under patriarchy. I make a lot of criticisms of "liberal feminism" that will turn heads and get people to think that I'm some kind of conservative or TERF, but the way I see it, I actually make such criticisms mainly because I'm extremely far from being either a conservative or a TERF.
On a somewhat similar subject, you know what's fucked up? I was interacting with this weirdo online who asked me why I'm a feminist, but here's the catch: he assumed that I'm a cisgender man in the process for some reason. In no way, shape, or form did I even indicate that I am a cis man.
Simply put, I explained to him some very surface-level ideologically feminist shit about seeing a lot of value in advocating for women's rights and tearing down the construct of patriarchy as a whole, and with that assumption that I am a cis man saying these things, he baselessly accused me of only saying that to try to "simp" for women and supporting feminism with ulterior motives to have sex with them.
Two points:
Yeah, I read posts online about guys lying about their awful politics to women sometimes and it grosses me out.
Yeah this has to be extremely prevalent. Whenever I see a couple whose socio-political beliefs are counter to each other, I wonder how anyone could spend their lives with people who ideologically hate them…
It would make sense that it was a bait and switch and sunken cost kicked in. “Stay together for the kids” type situations or worse.
I absolutely have no idea how these people make it work. I couldn't date anyone to the right of democratic socialism, and even that may be being generous. Truly revolutionary, radical leftists are obviously what I'm hoping for.
My wife is more of a left-lib or a social democrat then anything else, but then so was I when we met. It's doable if you are compatible in other ways. Although I certainly understand wanting to prioritize politics, it's also sadly true that having good politics doesn't necessarily make someone compatible with you for a variety of other reasons, and (only speaking for myself) people who I really connect with on a deep level and who I am also romantically interested in are already exceedingly rare.
I agree, but this is kind of a "squares and rectangles" type of deal for me. Although not everyone who aligns with my politics will be compatible with me, anyone who is truly compatible with me will have a decent degree of alignment with my politics.
I speak from experience, as my former partner with whom I recently broke up was a lot more libby than I am for sure, and that was a major contributing factor to our breakup, among other things. I had no doubt that she had her heart in the right place for whatever she believed politically, but it's something that I just could not see myself having any negotiability on. Mind you, I loved and admired her very deeply, but once these differences entered the frame, that love began to dwindle more and more with time.
Everyone's different in how they handle their own view of compatibility, so it's not something that could be universally applicable across all people in the dating scene. Some people will care a lot about having political compatibility to a point where anything else is a dealbreaker, and others are a lot more relaxed about it, to a point where I've heard of socialists dating conservatives.
For me? My existence is insanely "political," being black, neurodivergent, non-binary, pansexual, transfeminine, etc. These intersections politicized my existence so much that I wasn't able to hate myself or even remotely perceive myself as a human being deserving of basic rights and respect until I embraced radical leftism, and I'd like nothing besides a partner who espouses the same or similar ideals.
This is something I truly cannot imagine
Totally understandable! I hope you find the radical partner of your dreams
Agreed, back when I was using dating apps I had to make it clear what I was on about politically because I wasn’t gonna waste my time going on dates with anyone that didn’t allign with me.
I literally know several married women in my life that are still together with their husbands for that exact reason.
To the point where that seems to be more common than not... scary to think about.
And we wonder why so many women are choosing to avoid marriage altogether
Though I can understand wariness around men for sure, I'm not entirely sure if female separatism is anything but a niche. It frightens me too because it often comes with bioessentialist ideas that are not only transphobic but homophobic and biphobic as well. It's also an overwhelmingly white tendency as well, ignoring that the racism that women of color experience from white "feminists" makes separatism not as ideal as it is in the shortsighted view of privileged liberal white women.
That makes a lot of sense. I didn't think of that.
Also, to be honest, I don't know if any female separatist organizations put into practice were ever actually trans-inclusive, and even if they were, it raises concerning questions when you go beyond trans women and start thinking about where trans men and non-binary people factor into that kind of stuff. Excluding trans men, for instance, is "affirming," but it neglects the fact that they are deeply oppressed by patriarchy despite being men.
Female separatism has always had this "women distancing themselves from men" standpoint without a coherent analysis of intersectionality across race and genderqueer identity, and it has even consisted of heterosexual women who feign lesbianism especially since the height of such movements took place during a time where people didn't properly comprehend that sexual orientation is not a choice.
Some women of color have made this criticism that I made about race regarding the fact that white women are members of a privileged race, so they themselves do not need to find solidarity in fighting against living through racism, but women of color absolutely need to do that, and that often means finding solidarity in fighting racism with men who are the same marginalized race as them. This is why womanist groups were seldom, if ever, fond of separatism to give an example.
I was out with some colleagues, most of them younger than me. there was a discussion about their husbands doing dumb stuff and how they, as a couple, had already had "the talk" about how their lives were far too entertwined with multiple kids, assets and finances to ever consider divorce anymore. it was so grim to me. I made a joke about "Metal Marriage... til DEATH do us part" and got laughs.
also, being older, I've known people who said the same shit and were divorced like 5 years later.
as a child of divorced parents, the way some people talk about their marriages gives me anxiety.
That's why I'm scared of ever becoming a father.
It’s terrifying honestly…
My mom moved hundreds of miles away as soon as my sister graduated high school 🙃
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Your second point is so good.
It starts before you can even read. Even as a wee lad I remember any time I interacted with girls, my parents or some other parents would make a stupid comment about us dating. This shit happened all the way through high school. I never understood it, like why can't I just be friends with them?
Then the majority of those wee lads grow up into men that have known women as nothing more than some thing to be acquired.
Well, the second point exists because there ARE men that solely support women's rights because they want to have casual sex with them. I know, I've met them in bars and it is pretty clear their support for women's liberation is literally only skin deep, as in they only seek women's sexual liberation so that more women will want to have sex with them. It's somewhere in the line of 'All women are either whores or angels', and they are looking to create more angels (women who want to sleep with them).
Now, that being said, these kinds of guys are pretty few and far between, but are seen as ubiquitous and constant voices driving the discourse within media (see South Park, Metalocalypse, and multiple sitcoms such as Two and a Half Men or 30 Rock). I'd go so far as to say that for the past 30 years or so, that has been the mainstream and online comedy trope about male feminists. Once again, people have mistaken the heightened voice of a media archetype written primarily by non-feminist voices as feminist. Literally mixing up reality and media fantasy.
Edit: It's not nearly as prevalent as 'guy who completely misrepresents his politics to his girlfriend', but that rarely gets talked about.
I hate to admit it, but you're right. I find that's exactly why this loser immediately jumped to such a conclusion. These kinds of men will project this mentality because of them thinking "If I identified as a feminist, I'd definitely be doing it to be deceptive of women." Not so coincidentally, these are the same men that accuse feminism of being a "female supremacist" or "man-hating movement." Like, my brother in Christ, if you don't want women to hate you, stop being so damn hateable.
Yeah, I ground all of my criticisms of mainstream bourgeoisie feminism within feminist theory, but that is very confusing to the majority of cishet men, who because of having been fed hundreds of hours of propaganda, have absolutely zero idea what actual feminism even is, looks like or sounds like. I honestly feel like an asshole sometimes for even criticizing it, but a consumerist non-liberatory feminist position doesn't actually help anybody dismantle patriarchy so idk what to do.
Yeah, men are always projecting their hatred of women into other men all the time.
As a very intersectional enby, I'm always critical of bourgeois liberal feminism for obvious reasons. It's so shortsighted, unhelpful, and has no coherent sense of theory that will truly liberate all who suffer under patriarchy. I make a lot of criticisms of "liberal feminism" that will turn heads and get people to think that I'm some kind of conservative or TERF, but the way I see it, I actually make such criticisms mainly because I'm extremely far from being either a conservative or a TERF.
Such is the life of those with coherent political views that are not represented even on academic surveys.