are you literally doing the socialism in what country shtick? my god are you just straight up a reactionary? i didn’t think i would have to straight up prove to you that socialism was possible. i guess assumed since we were both on this forum we would at least agree that capitalism isn’t that last stage of human development.
here goes nothing i guess, the country of vietnam demonstrates the possibility of 1) defeating the martial forces of capitalism in battle, and 2) the various possiblities of managing an anti-capitalist economy. this isn’t to say that they are a model state to follow. it is only to say that they demonstrated the potential and still are.
socialism might be possible, but we ain't ther eyet and it ain't a defense for mankind. capitalism might be the fucking last stage of human development if climate change fucking kills us all.
there's tons of potential for socialism, but just because a couple people are fucking cool doesn't fucking absolve us as a species. you coulda said cuba too, or the ussr in it's prime, or china under mao too, but as a whole most countries ain't doing okay.
okay so do you understand why i still see path forward ethically for our species through the potential development of socialism, even if it is a path of redemption from innumerable sins as you say
I mean capitalism was once considered an underdog mode of production compared to the power of the church and the feudal nobility. we have changed modes of production before and can do it again. in fact every change in the mode of production that has ever happened could be framed as “an underdog story.” this is because the dominant mode must fall before the incipient one comes about.
so you don’t think capitalism is a mode of production that acutely grew out of the mercantile economies of the early colonial powers? i mean obviously the system of private property has been there “the entire fucking time” as you say, but capitalism has certainly not been.
so what’s the difference between capitalism and feudalism then? you’re literally doing a “capitalism realism” right now wherein all economic systems and possibilities outside of capitalism are either not considered or just considered a different capitalism.
okay there is definitely a tangible difference between fuedal modes of production and capitalist modes of production. namely, the advent of wage labor and destruction of the guilds. also the commercialization of agriculture. google the enclosure movement from england. basically the landlords kicked the peasants off the land and now they had to come back as wage laborers in order to work the same land they previously lived on. it literally caused a civil war which resulted in the institutional power of the bourgeoisie over the royal aristocracy in england. same thing happens in france and russia roughly prior to their revolutions. the transition from fuedalism to capitalism has unbounded scholarly works attributed to it. in this case the evidence is on my side unless you refuse to change your definition of capitalism as that system which has rulers and ruled.
if capitalism and feudalism were the same then why did capitalists start revolutions against feudal powers? if they were the same then that would be nonsensical.
feudalism and capitalism can both be hierarchal without them having no tangible difference. here is some evidence i found quite quickly. can find more too if you want. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-17745-5_2
also a tangible difference you seem to care about is that capitalism has caused mass extinction and feudalism didnt
the difference between feudalism and capitalism and the effect on mass extinction is negligible when you incorporate modern technology and fossil fuels, which would inarguably occur similarly provided that there was a lower class to exploit and an upper class in charge of resources.
the incorporation of fossil fuels and modern technology is literally a result of capitalism what are you talking about. you can’t just say what if the feudal lords had access to the same things. they didn’t because they were not capitalist and had not invested in developing such tech to generate profit.
not at all dude. maybe the speed at which it occured, but you're giving way too much credit to capitalism.
the advent of technology is not an invention of capitalism, but of eventual progress. i shouldn't have to argue this point to someone trying to speak up for the moral existence of human beings.
tesla and einstein were fucking socialists. the shit didn't happen because they wanted to make a profit, it may have created a motif to drive it, but it would have happened, probably under b etter circumstances, eventually anyway.
i’m not saying technological development under capitalism is only done be capitalists. i’m saying that the specific technologies you are referring to that killed the planet were technologies developed and funded by capitalist firms trying to increase profit. and to say what if the fuedal lords had the same tech, that’s just literally nonsense. it’s a historical argument based on development of the forces of production, you can’t just transport technologies throughout history independent of the modes of production that produce them to make a point.
I’m not disagreeing that when you frame it that broadly the system didn’t change, that’s why we need communism. Specifically because the aspect you are talking about didn’t change. but various other important aspects did change from feudalism to capitalism and that’s why they are different modes of production. just like how slavery is a different mode of production from both feudalism and capitalism. these changes are notable and much scholarship has been written about them, like the one i linked you.
also on an unrelated note, i genuinely apologize for insulting you. it was wrong and completely unrelated to the ideas we were discussing. and as you continue to put effort into this conversation i feel more and more bad about the way in which i acted when it began. i respect your insistence on your point of view and your will to argue for it.
capitalism and slavery didn't really have 'different' modes of production, just different ways by which they decided the working class.
people making 7 dollars an hour, many still people of color and illegal immigrants in the usa, working two jobs to maintain a living are on par with slaves.
the system didn't change much it just made it more pc. anything that pretends it's not the same is liberal revisionism.
have you actually read marx? not trying to be an ass but this is like marxism 101. there exists different modes of production sorry to break it to you. i honestly feel like you’re just trolling me at this point or you just literally don’t know.
(hint those different ways they decide the working class literally are the different modes of production)
you’re literally willfully ignoring substantial differences between slavery feudalism and capitalism just so you can paint all of them as capitalism. if you wanted to say they all were the same you could say they all were hierarchal, but no you say they are all just capitalism. your mind has been poisoned by capitalist ideology so throughly that you can’t even recognize a mode of production distinct from it. from within the cave of the the capitalist ideology, everything outside just looks like capitalism too. it’s meant to make you feel like there’s no other alternative and that capitalism is the natural progression of human economics rather than the specific ideology of a ruling class that siezed state power in the 17th century
oh really? and what socialist country do we have that demonstrates this?
are you literally doing the socialism in what country shtick? my god are you just straight up a reactionary? i didn’t think i would have to straight up prove to you that socialism was possible. i guess assumed since we were both on this forum we would at least agree that capitalism isn’t that last stage of human development.
here goes nothing i guess, the country of vietnam demonstrates the possibility of 1) defeating the martial forces of capitalism in battle, and 2) the various possiblities of managing an anti-capitalist economy. this isn’t to say that they are a model state to follow. it is only to say that they demonstrated the potential and still are.
socialism might be possible, but we ain't ther eyet and it ain't a defense for mankind. capitalism might be the fucking last stage of human development if climate change fucking kills us all.
there's tons of potential for socialism, but just because a couple people are fucking cool doesn't fucking absolve us as a species. you coulda said cuba too, or the ussr in it's prime, or china under mao too, but as a whole most countries ain't doing okay.
okay so do you understand why i still see path forward ethically for our species through the potential development of socialism, even if it is a path of redemption from innumerable sins as you say
yeah, because you've watched a lotta under dog stories.
I mean capitalism was once considered an underdog mode of production compared to the power of the church and the feudal nobility. we have changed modes of production before and can do it again. in fact every change in the mode of production that has ever happened could be framed as “an underdog story.” this is because the dominant mode must fall before the incipient one comes about.
dude capitalism is just an extension of a system of cruelty that has been there the entire fucking time.
so you don’t think capitalism is a mode of production that acutely grew out of the mercantile economies of the early colonial powers? i mean obviously the system of private property has been there “the entire fucking time” as you say, but capitalism has certainly not been.
no, as i said capitalism has been there the entire time. they change the name but it means a ruling class exploiting the poor.
so what’s the difference between capitalism and feudalism then? you’re literally doing a “capitalism realism” right now wherein all economic systems and possibilities outside of capitalism are either not considered or just considered a different capitalism.
there is no tangible difference. it's have nots being oppressed by a ruling class.
marxism, socialism, autonomy, and anarchy are theonly systems that sustain the people.
okay there is definitely a tangible difference between fuedal modes of production and capitalist modes of production. namely, the advent of wage labor and destruction of the guilds. also the commercialization of agriculture. google the enclosure movement from england. basically the landlords kicked the peasants off the land and now they had to come back as wage laborers in order to work the same land they previously lived on. it literally caused a civil war which resulted in the institutional power of the bourgeoisie over the royal aristocracy in england. same thing happens in france and russia roughly prior to their revolutions. the transition from fuedalism to capitalism has unbounded scholarly works attributed to it. in this case the evidence is on my side unless you refuse to change your definition of capitalism as that system which has rulers and ruled.
if capitalism and feudalism were the same then why did capitalists start revolutions against feudal powers? if they were the same then that would be nonsensical.
because they weren't the ruling class. if the 'revolution' still ends up with different classes of people it is fundamentally the same.
feudalism and capitalism can both be hierarchal without them having no tangible difference. here is some evidence i found quite quickly. can find more too if you want. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-17745-5_2
also a tangible difference you seem to care about is that capitalism has caused mass extinction and feudalism didnt
the difference between feudalism and capitalism and the effect on mass extinction is negligible when you incorporate modern technology and fossil fuels, which would inarguably occur similarly provided that there was a lower class to exploit and an upper class in charge of resources.
the incorporation of fossil fuels and modern technology is literally a result of capitalism what are you talking about. you can’t just say what if the feudal lords had access to the same things. they didn’t because they were not capitalist and had not invested in developing such tech to generate profit.
not at all dude. maybe the speed at which it occured, but you're giving way too much credit to capitalism.
the advent of technology is not an invention of capitalism, but of eventual progress. i shouldn't have to argue this point to someone trying to speak up for the moral existence of human beings.
tesla and einstein were fucking socialists. the shit didn't happen because they wanted to make a profit, it may have created a motif to drive it, but it would have happened, probably under b etter circumstances, eventually anyway.
i’m not saying technological development under capitalism is only done be capitalists. i’m saying that the specific technologies you are referring to that killed the planet were technologies developed and funded by capitalist firms trying to increase profit. and to say what if the fuedal lords had the same tech, that’s just literally nonsense. it’s a historical argument based on development of the forces of production, you can’t just transport technologies throughout history independent of the modes of production that produce them to make a point.
the systems remain the same. a small ruling class that exploits a larger class of workers to maintain their standard of living.
you've not presented anything that presents an argument against this.
I’m not disagreeing that when you frame it that broadly the system didn’t change, that’s why we need communism. Specifically because the aspect you are talking about didn’t change. but various other important aspects did change from feudalism to capitalism and that’s why they are different modes of production. just like how slavery is a different mode of production from both feudalism and capitalism. these changes are notable and much scholarship has been written about them, like the one i linked you.
also on an unrelated note, i genuinely apologize for insulting you. it was wrong and completely unrelated to the ideas we were discussing. and as you continue to put effort into this conversation i feel more and more bad about the way in which i acted when it began. i respect your insistence on your point of view and your will to argue for it.
capitalism and slavery didn't really have 'different' modes of production, just different ways by which they decided the working class.
people making 7 dollars an hour, many still people of color and illegal immigrants in the usa, working two jobs to maintain a living are on par with slaves.
the system didn't change much it just made it more pc. anything that pretends it's not the same is liberal revisionism.
have you actually read marx? not trying to be an ass but this is like marxism 101. there exists different modes of production sorry to break it to you. i honestly feel like you’re just trolling me at this point or you just literally don’t know.
(hint those different ways they decide the working class literally are the different modes of production)
functionally they're the same.
you’re literally willfully ignoring substantial differences between slavery feudalism and capitalism just so you can paint all of them as capitalism. if you wanted to say they all were the same you could say they all were hierarchal, but no you say they are all just capitalism. your mind has been poisoned by capitalist ideology so throughly that you can’t even recognize a mode of production distinct from it. from within the cave of the the capitalist ideology, everything outside just looks like capitalism too. it’s meant to make you feel like there’s no other alternative and that capitalism is the natural progression of human economics rather than the specific ideology of a ruling class that siezed state power in the 17th century
it's not a progression. it's a routine.
okay so you’re just a troll, noted.
your'e just a dumb stupid mother fucker.
the crowd disagrees
lol dfending majority rules haha. point proven.
Praise be, the spirit of Kirbyoto lives on.