I think Ken Burns was the one who put Wynton Marsalis as the spokesman of Jazz, which gave Jazz the shitty austere, neoliberal face it has had for the past 30+ years. So if I remember correctly Ken Burns need to shut the fuck up too, unless I'm wrong lol
Nope you're right. Wynton Marsalis says shit like real jazz died in 1970 and that hip hop is degenerate nonsense. He's totally missed the jazz rennaissance of the 21st century, and been left in the cold by everybody else in jazz who took hip hop (which was in turn first influenced by jazz) and brought it back into jazz to create true awesomeness.
Jazz is dead because it only exists in extreme minority populations of minority populations (and within them often the middle to upper class or people who dodge working class problems by being affiliated with churches) and in white academia. Working class people do not have time and in general exposure to "get" jazz.
The stuff you're posting speaks to what I'm saying, no offence of course.
Why would anyone want to listen to jazz though? It doesn't exist organically in anyone's community anymore and the reason why you found yourself interested in jazz is because you had a music department, you studied music and there was an obvious facilitation of your interests and the skills you built upon.
I think if all it took was the internet and a passing interest in something, we would all be listening to like Venezuelan Hropo, Indian Classical or Ewe drum music. But no, we mostly listen to pop musics and if we are crazy and liked the soundtrack to Cowboy Bebop or something- jazz and classical. I think saying all you need is YouTube is reactionary
I'm also not saying outliers don't exist but there's no point in bringing them up when the extreme majority of the trend is that people aren't interested in classical or jazz. I really don't think it's because of taste or intelligence, I think it's just exposure.
When people bring up how people used to love classical or jazz, I always need to respond, duh, it was everywhere.
But my point is that with the public school training and your clarinet you already had a foundational ear training that most people don't ever get in their entire lifetimes. And how do people start listening anyway? We have to keep going back to exposure and I'm going to keep saying that just because it's on YouTube doesn't mean people will look for it or even be interested by it if they do find it. You had a music education that was sufficient enough to keep you interested and going, a lot of the US can't speak to that.
You personally havent really said anything about your music program too, like it blows my mind when people make the arguments you're making and then their school did Essentially Ellington competitions or were well funded. Not saying you're that but it happens a lot when I do have this discussion.
And to rebutt theres a lot of Jazz out there that is made with pop sensibilities. So when you find some obscure album off /mu/, its not really... obscure... it's just stuff with pop sensibility that has been buried by half a century of pop music. Like Giant Steps or Take Five. Also, I'm working class as well, have two jobs, dont get it twisted.
Pop music is being used as an umbrella term that includes rock, hiphop, actual pop music, dubstep- backbeat stuff.
They're observations I've made studying and working in the field of music but also being from a place where more than a quarter of the population lives in poverty.
Working class people do not have time and in general exposure to “get” jazz.
What's there to "get"? A cool song is a cool song. You can engage with music on a deeper level, sure, but unless it's unstructured far-out stuff (note that there are examples of this in other genres as well) good music is almost immediately accessible.
So why are most people completely uninterested or unaware of Bartok? Thad Jones + Mel Lewis Orchestra? Why do most people just listen to 2+4 stuff and not much else? There's no way it's that simple unless you spend your life listening to /mu/ and pitchfork reviews.
Have you heard a song you didnt like and then learned to love it? That's the entire modern experience with classical and jazz it seems. But how do you get people to care about pieces that are fourty minutes long or in a musical language that you don't understand? The goals in listening to this stuff are different than a Coldplay song or something.
So why are most people completely uninterested or unaware of Bartok? Thad Jones + Mel Lewis Orchestra?
Commercialism of music? Most people like mainstream artists because that's what has an advertising machine behind it.
in a musical language that you don’t understand
This is what I'm not processing. Plenty of jazz songs are cool at first listen, and it's not as of jazz is some hyper-exotic style that's foreign to mainstream listeners.
I feel like that's one half of the problem, sure, but I think the other half is the lack of exposure to the musics in our communities. Have you never been to a Jazz Club where everyone is completely buried in their phones, even the tunes with diatonic as fuck lyrical heads get ignored pretty quickly.
The first time I heard fucking *Donna Lee * I thought it was absolute noise. I like it now obviously but I disagree with your assertion.
....Anyone could... but no one does or cares to find out... How many people do you know that are not musicians themselves who dig Bird?
And you're telling me that all people can and will just sit through an entire Brahms symphony without falling asleep or getting incredibly bored? Thats crazy, thats not how it works at all
Guys, Ken Burns never even played jazz music or baseball, his documentaries are shit
I think Ken Burns was the one who put Wynton Marsalis as the spokesman of Jazz, which gave Jazz the shitty austere, neoliberal face it has had for the past 30+ years. So if I remember correctly Ken Burns need to shut the fuck up too, unless I'm wrong lol
Nope you're right. Wynton Marsalis says shit like real jazz died in 1970 and that hip hop is degenerate nonsense. He's totally missed the jazz rennaissance of the 21st century, and been left in the cold by everybody else in jazz who took hip hop (which was in turn first influenced by jazz) and brought it back into jazz to create true awesomeness.
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Jazz is dead because it only exists in extreme minority populations of minority populations (and within them often the middle to upper class or people who dodge working class problems by being affiliated with churches) and in white academia. Working class people do not have time and in general exposure to "get" jazz.
The stuff you're posting speaks to what I'm saying, no offence of course.
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Why would anyone want to listen to jazz though? It doesn't exist organically in anyone's community anymore and the reason why you found yourself interested in jazz is because you had a music department, you studied music and there was an obvious facilitation of your interests and the skills you built upon.
I think if all it took was the internet and a passing interest in something, we would all be listening to like Venezuelan Hropo, Indian Classical or Ewe drum music. But no, we mostly listen to pop musics and if we are crazy and liked the soundtrack to Cowboy Bebop or something- jazz and classical. I think saying all you need is YouTube is reactionary
I'm also not saying outliers don't exist but there's no point in bringing them up when the extreme majority of the trend is that people aren't interested in classical or jazz. I really don't think it's because of taste or intelligence, I think it's just exposure.
When people bring up how people used to love classical or jazz, I always need to respond, duh, it was everywhere.
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But my point is that with the public school training and your clarinet you already had a foundational ear training that most people don't ever get in their entire lifetimes. And how do people start listening anyway? We have to keep going back to exposure and I'm going to keep saying that just because it's on YouTube doesn't mean people will look for it or even be interested by it if they do find it. You had a music education that was sufficient enough to keep you interested and going, a lot of the US can't speak to that.
You personally havent really said anything about your music program too, like it blows my mind when people make the arguments you're making and then their school did Essentially Ellington competitions or were well funded. Not saying you're that but it happens a lot when I do have this discussion.
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i listen to some jazz, my music taste is all over the place though, bit weird that you think we are some "other" tbh
And to rebutt theres a lot of Jazz out there that is made with pop sensibilities. So when you find some obscure album off /mu/, its not really... obscure... it's just stuff with pop sensibility that has been buried by half a century of pop music. Like Giant Steps or Take Five. Also, I'm working class as well, have two jobs, dont get it twisted.
i would rather set myself on fire than go there
i also don't really like pop music
but i'm not a music nerd, so maybe the stuff i listen to is pop influenced
the weird sweeping generalisation threw me off
Pop music is being used as an umbrella term that includes rock, hiphop, actual pop music, dubstep- backbeat stuff.
They're observations I've made studying and working in the field of music but also being from a place where more than a quarter of the population lives in poverty.
i mostly listen to metal, folk, and some classical, with a bit of jazz thrown in, but i like the odd song/piece from all over the spectrum really
What's there to "get"? A cool song is a cool song. You can engage with music on a deeper level, sure, but unless it's unstructured far-out stuff (note that there are examples of this in other genres as well) good music is almost immediately accessible.
So why are most people completely uninterested or unaware of Bartok? Thad Jones + Mel Lewis Orchestra? Why do most people just listen to 2+4 stuff and not much else? There's no way it's that simple unless you spend your life listening to /mu/ and pitchfork reviews.
Have you heard a song you didnt like and then learned to love it? That's the entire modern experience with classical and jazz it seems. But how do you get people to care about pieces that are fourty minutes long or in a musical language that you don't understand? The goals in listening to this stuff are different than a Coldplay song or something.
Commercialism of music? Most people like mainstream artists because that's what has an advertising machine behind it.
This is what I'm not processing. Plenty of jazz songs are cool at first listen, and it's not as of jazz is some hyper-exotic style that's foreign to mainstream listeners.
I feel like that's one half of the problem, sure, but I think the other half is the lack of exposure to the musics in our communities. Have you never been to a Jazz Club where everyone is completely buried in their phones, even the tunes with diatonic as fuck lyrical heads get ignored pretty quickly.
The first time I heard fucking *Donna Lee * I thought it was absolute noise. I like it now obviously but I disagree with your assertion.
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....Anyone could... but no one does or cares to find out... How many people do you know that are not musicians themselves who dig Bird?
And you're telling me that all people can and will just sit through an entire Brahms symphony without falling asleep or getting incredibly bored? Thats crazy, thats not how it works at all