for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I'm not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others' faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it's someone else's turn with a shared resource, and that it's important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers' ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it's funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it's just that kids at like 5 simply can't really conceive of a "social contract" for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little "play" involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the "dominant" shape
It's not super conclusive tbh but it's cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
I've worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
in fact i think it's borderline reactionary. yeah kids are gross and selfish and shitty but who taught them to be that way?
Honestly I think it's the other view that's reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They're selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren't inherent, just because they're ugly... It's pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They're taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then... Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
don't really think that needs to be beat out of them
I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late."
Expecting them to behave any different isn't reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Like kids don't need to be yelled at or implicitly threatened with a lack of love to understand that they did something wrong, we treat kids as way dumber than they actually are. but it doesn't follow that we then have to literally and/or metaphorically beat morality into their heads instead of guiding them towards their own understanding
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don't think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it's basically as bad as beating them.
But calling them inherently selfish and evil little monsters veers way too close to old reactionary rhetoric for it to be comfortable or OK
I don't know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late"
Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that's where it's at. Like I see a lot of... etherializing? of children. "Oooh they're just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don't treat them kinder" which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it's frustrating after you've worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they're not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there's a lot of tools they don't have. I can't count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they're in a fight and they just don't have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say "sorry" and emotionally investing into that sorry isn't something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
I've done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how "kids are just so creative" and "just go back to your childhood" and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. "I'M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS" okiedokie Philip, but actually it's Lisa's turn and we've already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like "be nice" and "you are not the only person in the world"
and "if you play the 'kick each other over the shins game' then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it"
and "GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don't play dodgeball?"
and "your friend didn't punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn't nice, don't you think getting kicked isn't nice too?"
and "Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn't let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won't let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I'm sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it's the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you"
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don't expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn't sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
for real. I have some childless friends. which I should say I am also childless, but I like kids and used to teach kids from ages 10-17. my friends have never worked with kids and never interact with them, but they remember school as being mean to them and not letting them achieve their maximum individual potential, so they think kids should just have all this unstructured magic playtime to explore their own genius.
I'm not saying we need to be shitty to them, but kids are crazy. they need to be constantly reminded not to cough in others' faces, not to dig in their own assholes and then touch group food, not to act like goddam maniac when someone it's someone else's turn with a shared resource, and that it's important to play in a group activity or accomplish a task with a partner and realize a shared vision.
kids can be absolutely fuckin bonkers' ass little terrorist monsters with no impulse control, and people who think they are magic enlightened angels should be forced to work with them for like one day.
I have a niece who keeps biting people
I am afraid of her
Rofl this is probably caused by the hilarious reactions she gets when she does this, either the elation adults show because it's funny af or the shock and surprise being entertaining. Discouraging it is very difficult and a lot of kids do it for the same reasons - incorrect reactions from those around them end up reinforcing the behaviour.
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Okay this is a very earnest examination of a little joke I was making but I will say that I agree, it's just that kids at like 5 simply can't really conceive of a "social contract" for the most part
There are some cool chimp studies though that showcase how infant humans and infant chimps, when presented with a little "play" involving a shape atop a hill that pushes another shape down whenever it climbs up, have very different priorities. When presented with physical toys that match the shapes from the play, infant humans usually chose the shape that was getting pushed down, while the infant chimps chose the "dominant" shape
It's not super conclusive tbh but it's cute that kids seemingly want to console the bullied actor
I've worked with kids from the age of 2-9 and I gotta tell you, they are not conditioned to be selfish monsters. They are selfish. They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late.
Honestly I think it's the other view that's reactionary. Kids are taught empathy. They do mean shit to each other all the tme. They're selfish and mean. They are also so much more, but pretending like these other qualities aren't inherent, just because they're ugly... It's pure ideology.
The system we exist in then hits them with contradictions. They're taught to care for others and share their stuff and be nice and then... Welcome to the world! You just got punked, sucker! Give me all your free time!
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I am not saying that. In fact I am saying the opposite "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late."
Expecting them to behave any different isn't reasonable. Expecting children to learn how to behave without guidance or help is also unreasonable.
Where did I say anything about any of this? I don't think yelling at children does anything but create trauma. Studies indicate it's basically as bad as beating them.
I don't know a lot about neuroscience, but I know some parts develop later than others. And again: "They've just barely learned that they themselves exist, expecting them to have empathy is a lot. They don't learn how actions and consequences are related until very late"
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Oh yeah for sure, I think we approach the discourse from opposite ends in some ways and that's where it's at. Like I see a lot of... etherializing? of children. "Oooh they're just inherently pure souls, all bad in this world is only because we don't treat them kinder" which leads to a lot of bad shit too, like unschooling. And it's frustrating after you've worked with them for some years. Watching a child not play with a bucket until another child asks them to pass it to them, to then start an argument, makes you realize they're not divine beings.
Their brains are developing, there's a lot of tools they don't have. I can't count the amount of times two kids have approached me because they're in a fight and they just don't have the toolkit to get out of it. Learning how to say "sorry" and emotionally investing into that sorry isn't something we have from the get go. Until your brain reaches the needed point, you need someone else to step in and guide you along the path.
Edit: see this comment for more examples
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:yea: me too
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I've done improv and TTRPGs with large groups of 7-9 year olds. So many theater teachers love to talk about how "kids are just so creative" and "just go back to your childhood" and act all enlightened about how the system just pushes us into boxes.
Kids fucking suck at improv. Their creativity is ass in any group project. They cannot relate to others and lack empathy. "I'M A BIG YELLOW ELEPHANT AND I AM BREATHING FIRE OUT MY ASS" okiedokie Philip, but actually it's Lisa's turn and we've already made characters. Michael is actually being burnt alive right now, so maybe instead of making it burn more, you think of a way you can help your good friend? Love the input though.
Kids are put into boxes, but those boxes are titled things like "be nice" and "you are not the only person in the world"
and "if you play the 'kick each other over the shins game' then at least one of you will cry. Which is okay, but you gotta be prepared for it"
and "GODDAMMIT DO NOT CLIMB TREES WITH A BROKEN ELBOW!**"
and "hey when your nose is broken, maybe don't play dodgeball?"
and "your friend didn't punch you out of nowhere, he punched you because you kicked him and those things are related, but yes I agree getting punched isn't nice, don't you think getting kicked isn't nice too?"
and "Hey remember yesterday when you came up to me, crying, because your friends wouldn't let you play with them? Well now Sophia, your friend, is telling me you won't let her play with all of you. Do you think Sophia feels like you felt yesterday? Oh I'm sure this game can accomodate one more person, since it's the same game you were playing yesterday when it could suddenly accommodate you"
one of the more amusing/instructive bits i remember picking up is how kids don't expect the adults to communicate with each other outside of what they see. like the benefit of cooperation and communication hasn't sunk in yet, so its a magic superweapon that can be used against them. the staff had this post meal meeting where the kids would have supervised play in a big field and we took about 20-30 minutes to identify the days issues like little douchey cliques to separate or who was acting shitty earlier in the day or who was having a hard time and needs a little extra, because they all floated between our tracks however they wanted.
the troublemakers and bullies were always baffled that yes, everyone else knows what clever moves you were pulling before lunch. like the adults were some other species of humanoid with a hive mind.
You've touched on some unexamined thoughts that rattle around in my brain. I'd like to formally say "oh yeah, huh..."