Is there any veracity to the claim that "the PSL covered up SA allegations"? I hear it a lot in discussions surrounding the PSL. I wanna know if this is a valid concern
I know the entire PSL party went out of their way to discredit of SA victim, bring all their media people to destroy her. No wait that was the democratic party and Tara Reade.
I know the entire PSL party went out of their way to discredit of SA victim,
I know you're trying to make a joke, but isn't this a little uncomfortably close to what happened in Philadelphia?
https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation
Is it only "believe women" when it's politically convenient?
Is it only "believe women" when it's politically convenient?
yes, communist men can be fucking gross when it comes to facing the reality that this occurs in many orgs.
What he said was "the entire PSL", not a branch, and that's kind of the thing about these accusations, that they are raised to try to claim that the entire Party participated or even had any awareness of the reality of the situation in whichever specific chapter, which is not true. Maupin is a real example of what is being insinuated here, with the central leadership being aware of and covering up his actions, among other complicit acts.
I'm not batting for the branch here, cut it off and burn it for all I care, but we need to be clear about the real scope of what happened, and the implicit meaning of "PSL shields predators" is that a Maupin-like situation is happening or something else (like the Catholic Church method) where the PSL has any involvement. No such accusation has been made concretely that I have ever seen, even though insinuations to that effect get made all the time.
The national Twitter account, pslweb, publicly doxed the alleged victim in Philadelphia. The current VP pick signed the letter denying the alleged victim's claim of SA ( https://www.gnvinfo.com/psl-president-candidate-claudia-de-la-cruz-responds-to-infamous-steven-powers-case/ ).
There are something like 5 cities with issues named in the prolewiki article, a source that's pretty friendly to PSL.
I don't hate PSL, but it's super gross to act like there isn't a kernel of truth here. Maybe it's an issue with organizing in the U$ as a whole, I don't know, but it's fucked up to ignore it.
Just a clarification :p we aren't necessarily friendly (or unfriendly) to any party, but we also can only write about what we can back up. In the case of PSL's controversy section ref 14 is a huge repository of many primary accounts, though I haven't followed their own links, but I would start with that catalog as it has tons more links that I saw
I forgot to mention it also comes down to who edits a page and what they want to say. We know for example from someone who tried out with PSL that they're not great at all on indigenous issues (but no party is in the US) but they haven't got around to editing that in.
Sure, that's more like the "Catholic Church method", as I called it, so then insinuations about the whole organization on the basis of that case are warranted.
That said, doesn't the denial dox use the (potentially) real name of the girl who the boyfriend cheated on the alleged victim with, who the alleged victim alleged was another victim? The article only mentions that person by name in one place and doesn't mention outing or doxxing. I don't know, this is hard to follow.
I do need to defend myself though that I absolutely did not say anything should be ignored, I was simply saying that the scope of the claims and people's actions should be kept in mind. It was PSL stepping in to deny this that is potentially the problem with "PSL" as an organization rather than "PSL Philadelphia" or whichever other chapter. Am I making sense? If some guy commits a murder, that doesn't mean his whole household was complicit in it unless they actually do things to help him (accomplish it, get away with it, etc.). What I am saying is that if it was the guy (chapter) acting on his own, put him on trial and sentence him appropriately. It's only if the household (overall organization) seemingly intervened at some point in the process that pronouncements like "the household is guilty" becomes relevant. And then you kindly provided evidence toward that latter end, so I agree with you that such pronouncements are relevant.
Thanks for clearing things up.
*One edit: regarding your chapter/national split, I mostly agree, but I think a situation poorly handled by a local chapter still does reflect poorly on the national org. They're the local representative of the national org.
Yeah, I probably should have specified that this is true, but I was trying to avoid getting too in the weeds and made an error. My thing is that a chapter going to hell without the direct worsening of things by the national org is more a problem of negligence or poor construction of their onboarding systems, etc. rather than being culpable themselves of harboring abusers. Both are still harmful behaviors and should be treated as such and it's possible PSL did both (the case is very murky, as you say), but I just want to be clear on the standards I'm asserting for guilt since it isn't something one should speak lightly on.
i mean u didnt put a gun to my head, but, i would think anyone with a conscience would read about something like this and i would think u know that.
don't know why anyone is shocked about this it's a problem in every national communist party I've ever heard of. urge reckoning with reality instead of hand waving violence against women!
Accusations to discredit leftist organisations are so severe that you should only believe it if there's hard proof. Let those accusers give some actual evidence then
the burden of proof is on the people claiming that, not on us or the psl.
https://archive.is/yT5vp#selection-42.0-42.1
Just saw this from the other link shared…
OP you are engaging in my mind in unacceptable wrecker behavior.
You are attempting to suppress votes for the only anti-imperialist, socialist party on the ballot nationwide in the US on election day.
The time to ask this question was a week ago, a month ago, 3 days ago, time for people to have a discussion without a deadline looming to cast a ballot for them or not.
Doing this at the 11th hour reads to me as an attempt to suppress votes for them, to perhaps even attempt to get some lurkers to vote Democrat instead by causing issues and concern that they're voting for abusive people.
Since we're in the court, I move that OP be given a temp ban until the election is over and this thread be locked and removed as should all other discussion on this as wrecker behavior.
Why couldn't any of you have brought this up a week ago? A month ago? We've long been supporting PSL's candidates and discussing our imminent votes for them for some time and people would have been happy to discuss it. But there was silence, no threads, no major discussions on it. Now at this opportune moment you break ranks, you deploy these accusations in an inflammatory thread on election day without proper time for a discussion, raising emotional tensions against PSL right as we most need people to vote for them.
So why now? I'm disgusted by people dredging up this shit on this day of all days. It's transparent what it is. It isn't good faith, it isn't helpful or useful. Even if it's all true what are you going to do about it? How else are you going to signal on the ballot as an American a support for the agenda of socialism, a vote against war with China and Russia?
There is a time for discussion and a time for solidarity and closing of ranks and showing any left-leaning people who browse our instance that we support Claudia de la Cruz and they should too rather than voting Democrat. Today is a day for closing of ranks. Tomorrow will be a day for litigating any problems we may have with our movement.
This is peak western left in-fighting, ill and unacceptably timed.
This is how you get people to see through your party and NOT want to vote for them. Bourgeois democracy is literally not ever that serious, it is a symbolic protest vote and matters so SO much less than SA allegations true or not. Calling someone who wants to make sure they aren't supporting SA protectors a "wrecker" (again, whether the allegations are true or not and there are certainly true ones) is a misogynist reaction to real concerns that only shows that women are unsafe in the PSL. One more vote for Claudia is not worth that.
Not really the same thing at all. Tara Reade was an individual coming out, risking her reputation to do so, against someone who had a viable chance to acquire immense political power (and who subsequently did so and used it in service of genocide). Someone who also has a detailed past of horrible policies. This is vague "I heard a rumor" language being said about an entire party by an anonymous person on the internet, not even about the PSL candidates running specifically, and for candidates who have zero chance to win the presidency and a party that has virtually no political power thus far. The OP didn't even provide a case against PSL themself. They prompted a case to be made against them. Whether intentional or born from ignorance, this is one of the most common types of rumor-mongering, while trying to avoid having any responsibility put on the person who does it. "I heard that my neighbor Tom eats babies? Is this true? Just want to make sure if I should keep my children away from him."
Like take a step back from this particular issue for a moment and think about the framework of how this is being done. Because even if this is all true and PSL 100% deserves the flack and OP has the best of intentions trying to be a conscientious person, this is also a kind of approach that gets used for dishonest means. This cannot be the best we have for dealing with accountability and consequence, is reactively asking provocative questions on election day and shouting at each other about who is more principled in the face of accusations.
I read quite a bit of it. I must be missing something big for it to make any sense at all as a comparison. One is a national imperialist party, one of two parties who holds power in the world-spanning US empire, and is capable of carrying out genocide (and is doing so right now). One is a grassroots organization with very limited reach and influence. That doesn't change the fact that SA allegations need to be taken seriously, but it does make the timing and nature of allegations different. Also different is the way in which it has been done with this thread. This was not a thread compiling resources and providing sourced information to make a case against PSL for a specific, described purpose. It was a thread asking a leading question and letting the reader fill in the blanks with their imagination. And PSL is not an organization with immense power and a sparkling reputation in the public eye for millions of loyalists, which needs a dose of reality applied to it. It is a (relative to the existing power structures) tiny and struggling organizational effort in the core of the empire. And with it being in the core of the empire, it is especially vulnerable to both infiltration and the various imperialist tendencies in the very population it's trying to recruit membership from. If it is failing to be disciplined on those fronts, it deserves criticism for doing so; from fellow anti-imperialists and communists who are trying to make better happen. But there is a tendency for people to approach this kind of thing with individualist thinking, to view it not as an "us problem" but as a "them problem" and "I'm not part of it because I condemn it and I don't support them." Sexism happens in the most banal, everyday ways in a patriarchal society. The point there is not that it should be seen as normal and ignored—just the opposite if anything—but that, much like being anti-racist, opposing it means more than saying it's bad and saying people who are doing it are bad and should feel bad and you should be mad at them.
At some point, we have to actually develop processes of disciplined accountability. I don't see how anyone would even begin to do such a thing for a party like the democratic party, but it is possible to do so with communist or communist-adjacent orgs. That is one of the differences in comparing. It should be possible to approach this in a way that can get real results in accountability, with organizing efforts like PSL. With a party like the democratic party, it's more a matter of helping people understand how systemically unconscionable they are and how irredeemably captured by imperialist interests and all the oppressive isms tied up in that. It does us no good to apply the same approach to an org that is meant to have the potential to resist the empire, to only treat it as a hopeless endeavor in need of being putting on blast with tactless dismissal if any hint of bad behavior comes out of it. We can't afford to give up on orgs like this as victims of poor leadership.
I don't know if I'm making myself clear or not, but I'm kind of tangentially getting into a pattern that I see with US "left-leaning" orgs and how people talk about them. "This one is bad for this reason, this one is bad for that reason," okay, so what are we doing for alternatives then? Where are we leading people if the only options are bad? Is there no way to root out issues in any of these orgs? Is the only solution to tell people they are bad and to stay away from them? What does that accomplish for organizing?
I mean, I'm pretty sure theres a ton of empire challenging parties that are beyond help and arent worth advocating for. Trotskyist parties obviously. A big lesson people have been learning recently in the CPUSA is that trying to change the org from the inside just has not been working. The complete declawing of the anti-zionist DSA proposal shows that the right will assume power whenever something radical comes along. I'd argue both organizations are controlled resistance simply through the futility in engaging in liberalism and settler politics, CIA inflitration or not.
You could say the same thing about the green party as well. Hell, theyre not even self described socialist, following the party as a guide towards anti-imperial work leads you to doing electoralism without any kind of dual power building or smashing tentacles of imperialism beyond toothless protests.
PSL is largely funded by a few people who have a large say in the party, there's a tendency to burnout, abuse of power, a distinct lack of dual power building, transperancy, and settler cadre and policies to the extent that some native orgs (The Red Nation) see them a lost cause and do not work with them.
Where does that leave us? What's the point of condemning, to say that these parties aren't worth engaging in? In my opinion, "Something else" is a good enough answer. Native ML orgs exist that are doing the community organizing, education, and dual power building that really matters. Black defense groups and mutual aid orgs, hell anarchists feeding their communities and engaging in materially anti-imperialist actions are doing more than our American brand of protests or electoralism could ever bring.
Lastly, who are we organizing? Are we radicalizing, connecting, and orchestrating actions among the actual proletariat of America and its imperialist tentacles? (non-citizens, indigenous, racialized hyper-exploited populations) Or are we organizing the white labor aristocracy, petite bourgeoise, or otherwise settler population and arming them with marxist rhetoric and calling them the vanguard of the hyper exploited?
The fact is, this is America. In America, as long as imperialism produces a labor aristocracy, as long as coputulating to whiteness is in the material interest to the vast majority of this population, the revolution is not coming with just organizing, and certainly not in parties or power structures overwhelming controlled by settlers. The material conditions need to be created. The guide to action is cutting the tentacles of imperialism, building dual power to help the hyper exploited before and after the revolution, and bringing our number one export, suffering, home.
If PSL would rather care about the election of all things more than people feeling unsafe in their org, that's on them. I see the entire effort put towards getting them on the ballot to be fruitless and a waste of cadre time and money, and the wrecker allegations happen no matter what day the SA cases get brought up. Why do so many of you online sound like democrats upset you're not getting the marxist vote you're apparently owed, despite the fact there's literally nothing to gain but a symbolic number go up?
I'm sorry if I sound mad but Marxists should know that this election and this party does not matter as much as having the frank discussion and self-crit on what has happened in the PSL and what good can come from being in the org. What worries me is that not a single response has been "They recognized power abuse in the organization and addressed it and try and prevent it from happening in the future" but instead sweeping it under the rug, handwaving the issue, or saying that these many people were simply lying. If there's anything the election should be it should be an advertisement for the party and its policies, and the reactions to this post is capitalizing on that to say that even just asking if the party is an unsafe place for women and other vulnerable groups you are a "wrecker", it's a bad look for PSL and the Marxism-Leninism they claim to follow.
I was with you more or less until the last couple paragraphs when it turns into reductionist finger-pointing. When you say in one breath that you think PSL's strategy of putting time into elections is a waste and then in another breath, excuse the worst timing possible to bring up an issue like this—one which I seem to be being told has been around for a long time now—it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that can help ensure it is wasted time by turning people against them as an org when they'd have the most visibility. As myself and others have said, I don't understand why this is being brought up specifically on election day, instead of bringing it up at a time when people can examine it more closely. I don't actually believe people like you are "wreckers" or something myself, I think that is a weighty thing to throw around without evidence, but I do think you have terrible strategic thinking and are inadvertently helping me understand one of the reasons the "left" struggles to gain traction in the US. Side note: You are the second person in this thread I've seen compare to democrats in a dismissive way, but neither of you have been able to explain what is remotely similar about the circumstances.
I will reiterate what I said here:
But there is a tendency for people to approach this kind of thing with individualist thinking, to view it not as an “us problem” but as a “them problem” and “I’m not part of it because I condemn it and I don’t support them.”
And that's precisely the kind of mindset I see espoused in your post. "They suck at being on 'my' side, so who cares if what people say messes with their efforts because their approach is bad and they're corrupt anyway."
You know what is a bad look for us? Being so out of the loop on the organizing efforts in our country (I say "our" assuming you are US-based like myself with how you are talking about this) that we have to ask leading questions on election day about a third party org, as if we just woke up from a coma. Do you really think if we all collectively responded to this thread with, "PSL is bad and here's why, and don't vote for them," that'd make people feel better about "left" efforts in the US? No, they're going to be saying, "Why in the hell did this org manage to get enough traction to even get on the ballots if they're so bad at living the values they claim to believe in? Is this really the best they have to offer?"
I mean, you spoke vaguely of:
Native ML orgs exist that are doing the community organizing, education, and dual power building that really matters. Black defense groups and mutual aid orgs, hell anarchists feeding their communities and engaging in materially anti-imperialist actions are doing more than our American brand of protests or electoralism could ever bring.
But like, why is there not a single one under this magic good kind of communism umbrella that you're naming, that I've heard of. Am I myself out of the loop (should I know The Red Nation well? that's the only org you even named outside of ones you were criticizing). Are these orgs trying to be low profile for strategic reasons or are they just small? Why does this come out sounding so much like "it's only real communism when nobody has heard of it and it has little impact"? And continuing from that...
Lastly, who are we organizing? Are we radicalizing, connecting, and orchestrating actions among the actual proletariat of America and its imperialist tentacles? (non-citizens, indigenous, racialized hyper-exploited populations) Or are we organizing the white labor aristocracy, petite bourgeoise, or otherwise settler population and arming them with marxist rhetoric and calling them the vanguard of the hyper exploited?
Is your position that we're going to be waiting on non-white communists to do a revolution and that white communists should sit on their hands? (considering you include the term "settler population"). I'm not asking that as a gotcha, I'm seriously trying to understand here. I understand that we can't blindly have western chauvinists do a socialism and pretend we've done something, but what exactly is the picture of success here? This is a point I've been meaning to ask somebody about anyway, so might as well ask how you view it.
Essentially I believe PSL is not the vanguard because leadership and cadre are largely not proletarian. I don't believe the settler population ought to be twiddling their thumbs, but they need to be led by the proletarian vanguard and PSL is largely led by fellow labor aristocracy and petite bourgeoisie.
I spoke vaguely of orgs because many are localized and focus on their specific communities because they simply do not have mass appeal under settler colonialism. The Black Panthers studied Juche for good reason as they were made up of the community they were trying to liberate. These orgs like Chunka Luta Network are housing and organizing the proletariat, having an active impact in their communities that PSL cannot say the same for.
The "left" in America has problems gaining traction for material reasons. To me it says a lot that this "left" we're referring to when it comes to PSL is not rooted in the communities its saying they are the vanguard of. I can think of a few orgs that are focused on protecting and aiding sensitive hyper exploited communities that have cut ties with PSL over anti-blackness, misogyny, and anti-indigineity (I am not listing them because of the orgs opsec but for my own, as they are local to me). These orgs and communities don't need a labor aristocracy to guide them on action, they're already doing more effective work even among the less theoretically advanced populace due to their material conditions.
There are settlers in these organizations, but they are guided by those with that material interest in liberation. What strikes me as particularly "labor zionist" about PSL is that they say they're speaking for people that have their own organizations, have their own communities, that they are not a part of and don't want them involved in. The theoretically objective analysis of material conditions is used to put the leadership above the people and disconnected from the actual struggling masses, of which the leadership should actively be a part of and not simply "speaking for".
Interesting, thanks for explaining your thoughts on it. In terms of the specific view that "hyper exploited communities that have cut ties with PSL over anti-blackness, misogyny, and anti-indigineity (I am not listing them because of the orgs opsec but for my own, as they are local to me)", I hope you will understand I have to take this with a grain of salt unless there are non-opsec-sensitive examples you can share sources on. I would not want you to put any org in danger just to prove a point to someone on the internet, but also, from my perspective, you can probably understand that simply taking your word for it that "hyper exploited communities have cut ties with PSL [because of prejudicial views/treatment]" is kind of vague as a thing to go on. One of the problems with it being that even if true in X instance, it doesn't say anything about the circumstances surrounding it; whether the treatment came from the top down, or from local PSL branches; what form it took; etc.
I really didn't want to get into it and have to try to work out how to say it diplomatically (and even so, I fear I'll get accused of being dismissive of women's issues for saying it), but since you've already gone there and aren't pulling any punches, I will say, I had a similar thought as you. The timing of it, whether accidental or not, is weird as hell. The accusations could be entirely true, exaggerated, false, or anywhere between, but there is no time for people to sort that out properly literally on election day. And it's not as though PSL is gonna win the presidency and someone needs to call them out to make sure they don't gain immense power and abuse it. In this election, they've always been a fringe "closest thing to something truly 'left' to gain popular support and build a movement at all" and electorally, is mostly just a way to spread a "leftist" message. Tossing around "what's up with, I heard a rumor" type statements at a time like this, when they're going to be at the height of being seen at all throughout all the erasure a party like them faces in popular media, is bizarrely naive at best.
Similar happened with the green party recently (not originating on here, mind) and though I have little desire to defend them considering I never expected them to be aligned with folks like us in the first place, the timing of it was also odd. After a lot of hearing little about them policy-wise one way or another, the green party VP running has a statement extracted out that makes him sound like he has anti-trans views. Maybe he does and it's important to know, but if there is one thing US electoralism is a well-oiled machine at, it's smearing political candidates. And when it's coming for candidates who in the best case scenario could have their party win 5% or whatever for funding, it's all the more to me like, "We're doing this right now? Is this supposed to be principled?"
I could understand if we were talking about candidates who can actually win the presidency, but like, what exactly is the goal of bringing it up right now other than to get people to hesitate voting for a third party and help undermine any attempts to put a wrench in the dual party structure?
Even as little as a week ago would have been better. At least then there'd be some time to go over what is known. And if this was already known and people were waiting around to bring it up until now, that's just straight up the opposite of helping; not helping women and not helping organizing efforts either.
To be fair, PSL isn't a monolith, and the US is filled with misogynists and horrible men in general. Awful that people in power in the org covered it up, even for a single branch it should be all that we're against. Here's a mega link with criticisms and accounts of SA
Will note I disagree with a good portion of the public criticisms section as some are Maoist/Trotskyist takes but the first hand accounts here are worth listening to. I think a big problem here is the lack of transperancy and purposefully hindered communication (cadre in branches are told not to talk to each other except through leadership) and overall too much centralization without the democratic part. Considering the anti-indigenity found in their socialist reconstruction program as well as by other indigenous groups interactions with them (I would suggest reading the Red Nation link in the drive), you could also tie this in with their settler politics as a whole.
I will also note the organization has a history of calling people who disagree with their line or mention the cases of SA as "adventurists" "wreckers" or the like. This is where the danger steps in, PSL is a deeply imperfect org and even an org as revolutionary and worthy of praise and support as the black panthers should and would take SA seriously.
I once heard a similar thing about Tjen Folket here in Norway.
