I'm sorry, but I find the Chapo perspective on this to be absolutely disgusting.
Are you guys seriously denying that these camps exist? They arent killing people in the camps... but putting a religious minority in camps is objectively wrong...
Is the issue that you think these camps are mislabelled? Or that they are completely fabricated?
I'm honestly going to quit this stupid fucking website soon. A bunch of privilidged white teenagers cheering as people who actually struggle are living half-lives under state capitalism. Its disgusting.
No, its not as bad as bombing muslim people... but putting thousands of them in camps is fucking wrong. Its not a fairytale. I've spent a LOT of time in western china, and the Muslim population are treated like absolute shit.
Muslim STATES don't give a shit about other muslims, in other countries. That has literally ALWAYS been the case. The people living in those countries actually DO give a shit, and talk about this situation all of the time... But none of you would know that, because you're a bunch of rich lib teenagers living off your parents teet roleplaying revolutionary from behind a 2000 dollar screen. Fuck off.
Now downvote me instead of providing an actual argument, or proof these camps are "invented", because you're a bunch of cowards who would rather parrot nonsense than read literally anything.
Love living in an age where everyone's mom has a cell phone with a high resolution camera and Tor/Freenet capability yet somehow nobody can get photos of the camps where supposedly 80% of Xinjang's population (that would be around 16M human beings) is caged.
What is your solution to cia funded Islamic radicalization and separatist movements intended to destabilize the region? Re-education camps are the moral response.
The pure socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
That's you with a helping of "Muslims are too incompetent or too hateful of other Muslims to condemn China, but I, with a friend in China, know what is really happening."
but putting thousands of them in camps is fucking wrong. Its not a fairytale. I’ve spent a LOT of time in western china, and the Muslim population are treated like absolute shit.
Could you point me to evidence of this? I'm open for any and all credible evidence. I think the main contention is that the only evidence is provided by CIA sources.
If you are going to declare literally ANY new source a CIA shill, then I don't know what to tell you.
If you can look at the satellite imagery of homes being destroyed en masse, and camps being built and say: "that is 100% consensual redevelopment and vocational training" ... I don't know what to tell you.
You need to get on a plane, fly to Urumqi, sit through about 2 weeks of beauracratic bullshit, then go speak to people on the ground.
Muslims are treated like second class citizens. Theyre constantly discriminated against, they get lower pay, they have 0 control over their futures inthe country, and they are legit scared. Go to a cafe, and watch Han people throw food and napkins at Muslim waiters, and shout insults at them.
Sometimes you actually need to leave your basement and see the world...
You cant GET a muslim to speak to you most of the time, because they're fucking scared, and 95% of the time your government escort is strongarming you into 100% han businesses/areas.
And AGAIN if you think all 300 of these sources are CIA propaganda... I dont know what to say to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
You cant GET a muslim to speak to you most of the time, because they’re fucking scared, and 95% of the time your government escort is strongarming you into 100% han businesses/areas.
Have you seen this guy's videos?
https://youtu.be/dCNgYKBgZtc?t=202
https://youtu.be/DF02xWgkAJ0?t=246
He's a Chinese-Canadian who visited Xinjiang recently. I take it you're basing a lot of your claims on your experience living in Western China. How long ago was this and in what area? Are you currently living there right now?
Now downvote me instead of providing an actual argument, or proof these camps are “invented”, because you’re a bunch of cowards who would rather parrot nonsense than read literally anything.
This isn't a source, this is an absolutely rambling manifesto.
What is the point of this document? It seems to be a combination of:
a) justifying the vocational camps by providing evidence that muslims can be radicalized... which is the exact same racist imperialist justificationf for war/power bullshit we always see....
b) discrediting some of the reporting of the muslims camps by attacking the credibility of the sources... which yes, is a legit point... but theyre talking about a few of literally hundreds of sources now.
c)going on a long tyrade about how nice China is to minorities... which 1) who gives a shit its irrelevant to whats happening now and 2) is propaganda nonsense.
Go out and actually SPEAK to some Chinese people. Go visit China. My chinese mates are the FIRST to admit that Chinese people are not racist, but the government itself is PROFOUNDLY racist...
As leftists, how you can basically ignore the plight of working class minorities... because of a hardon for their government... is pretty fucking lame.
The big, long document CLEARLY states the goal of these camps WHICH EXIST: "To strictly prevent and crack down on extremist terrorism" and to "Hold high the banner of solidarity of all ethnic groups, and promote unity.... and recognition of chinese culture"
So basically they ADMIT its happening, and say its happening because ooooh scary terrorism, but really theyre doing it to promote "unity" which means: "Everyone act like han chinese people so we dont fight"
This whole uigher denial stuff started in our community as a REACTION to reddit claiming it was a second holocaust --- which it is NOT.
We went over the top, in order to belittle them ironically for being so reactionary. They were blowing a bad thing: forced reeducation of 100,000s of minorities into: genocide of millions of people! Which is ridiculous because its out of proportion, and incredibly stupid given that America has literally murdered more muslims than LIVE in china...
But then everyone gets sent to chapo.chat for an echo-chamber treatment... and now the joke has turned into a bunch of edgy teenagers outright denying what is a very real, albeit slightly less devastating, human rights abuse.
Ya'll come off like holocaust deniers with your rambling google docs, and outright denial of piles of evidence its fucking embarassing.
Forcing people into the camps against their will for seemingly minor things like using a VPN isn't good obviously but
I have no idea to what extent were participants happy/unhappy with the program and
Mandatory schooling/vocational training for a year seems preferable to having terrorist attacks in the region every year (which has supposedly stopped since the program was put into place)
Also I haven't really seen anything to suggest that conditions in the camps are that bad
a) justifying the vocational camps by providing evidence that muslims can be radicalized… which is the exact same racist imperialist justificationf for war/power bullshit we always see…
You can disagree with their means of dealing with it but I really don't see how the justification of dealing with terrorism is bullshit considering the region did actually have a legit terrorism problem before the program was put into place. Do you think Xinjiang did not have a terrorism problem?
but theyre talking about a few of literally hundreds of sources now
A lot of the reporting I've seen tend to cite the sketchy stuff from Zenz, ASPI, state-backed human rights orgs, and media outlets associated with Falun Gong that gets debunked. Would be happy to revisit any of these sources or anything else that you think is legit.
My chinese mates are the FIRST to admit that Chinese people are not racist, but the government itself is PROFOUNDLY racist
I was under the impression the opposite was the case based on what happened with the Guangzhou covid incident (where the people were being racist and the government took steps to push back against it) and also on the affirmative action policies. I'd be interested in reading more about this if you could point me to some sources.
So basically they ADMIT its happening, and say its happening because ooooh scary terrorism, but really theyre doing it to promote “unity” which means: “Everyone act like han chinese people so we dont fight”
This comes across as a bad faith reading of their messaging. Again, do you think Xinjiang did not have a terrorism problem?
Like is people being knifed to death and blown up every year somehow not scary (and a reasonable explanation for their call for unity)?
Assuming you're referring to stuff like them being made to learn Mandarin, I think that makes sense as a way of giving people more access to job opportunities and also as a way of easing racial tensions in as short a time as possible.
Trade schools are not camps and though ive no doubt China are heavy handed about it their overall goals -deradicalising a population that has been photographed all over Syria and Afghanistan joining Uyghur detachments for Isis and Al Qaeda has been a million more times humane than what the West does
On the topic of the West, why is it only Western nations (who have waged an actual genocide against muslims in our lifetime) have a problem with China while many eurasian/african and middleest countries have sent diplomats to Xinjiang and approved of the deradicalisation program?
Its not a fairytale. I’ve spent a LOT of time in western china, and the Muslim population are treated like absolute shit.
Proof or it didnt happen. During the 1 child policy era ethnic minorities (including the Uyghurs) were allowed to have more children and there are a number of programs to get ethnic minorities into universities
You can't possibly argue that the Uighurs have had a good time in China... Its just... so separate from reality its impossible to debate with you.
Being exempt from the one-child policy has absolutely 0 connection to what its like to live in Western China as a minority.
Its like you're trying to tell me that Mexicans have had a great time in Arizona, because the Latin Chamber of Commerce offers scholarships to some students... You're completely ignoring the lived experience of the people on the ground... and their material/social disadvantages.
I know as fact that they've had it better than Afghanis, Iraqis, Yemenis, Syrians and Libyan muslims
All people destroyed by West who are the ones who now accuse China
But as i said...no investigation no right to speak so after you read through Mogs google document collection on Xinjiang you can come back and articulate your view
YES they have had it better than those absolutely persecuted peoples. That isn't a reason to stand by and condone racial prejudice... which is exactly what you are doing....
And there have been PLENTY of investigation, you just declare anything you disagree with as a CIA shill, which is incredibly myopic.
So why do the only countries that denounce China on its Xinjiang policy amount to a map of Nato?
Why do 54 countries (a bunch of which are muslim majority countries or countries with a large population of muslims) who have sent diplomats to Xinjiang approve of the policy?
54 countries support forced reeducation of violent muslims.... that does nothing except prove that countries are willing to continue being racist in exchange for investment from China....
No one here is even DENYING that they have forced re-education camps. China admits it, yall are admitting it, and that stupid google document constantly admits it...
If you are PRO re-education camp in this camp: your interest in the working class, and the plight of minorities is nothing but performative. You dont believe all the shit you pat yourself on the back for.
But none of you would know that, because you’re a bunch of rich lib teenagers living off your parents teet roleplaying revolutionary from behind a2000 dollar screen
Coughs and blows smoke So yeah dude, so in order to convince them I was right, I, like, insulted them and made a generalization about their livelihoods that I'm sure they've never heard before.
Hell, I even believe you that the Han tend to be racist towards Muslims in Western China, but this shit is pretty stupid if you are actually trying to convince either the posters or lurkers here.
Edit: Downvote me all you want, but if you want to engage in a productive dialogue, it helps not to immediately go to generalized insults. But hey, continue to be frustrated by people's general antipathy towards you. If you wanna just insult people, that's cool, I can dig it, but insulting people and then expecting them to be at all responsive to your arguements is fucking hilarious in how dumb it is.
what would leftists actually DO if they were in consensus with NATO/CIA about Xinjiang? Are leftists going to organize some sort of effort for Uighurs that will supercede NATO/CIA? Would a consensus with the left cause NATO/CIA to defer to the left to come up with a "solution?" Do individual leftists with "lived experience", like yourself, have any say in what will happen in China? Does being an individual left voice in support of the NATO/CIA line have any value? Does it add anything? Does it take anything away? When everyone except some leftists agree that China is doing genocide does it matter to be a leftist that points out that "re-education camps aren't OK?" Do you think that by agreeing with liberals and NATO/CIA they will let you have a seat at the table?
I'm sorry, but I find the Chapo perspective on this to be absolutely disgusting.
Are you guys seriously denying that these camps exist? They arent killing people in the camps... but putting a religious minority in camps is objectively wrong...
Is the issue that you think these camps are mislabelled? Or that they are completely fabricated?
I'm honestly going to quit this stupid fucking website soon. A bunch of privilidged white teenagers cheering as people who actually struggle are living half-lives under state capitalism. Its disgusting.
No, its not as bad as bombing muslim people... but putting thousands of them in camps is fucking wrong. Its not a fairytale. I've spent a LOT of time in western china, and the Muslim population are treated like absolute shit.
Muslim STATES don't give a shit about other muslims, in other countries. That has literally ALWAYS been the case. The people living in those countries actually DO give a shit, and talk about this situation all of the time... But none of you would know that, because you're a bunch of rich lib teenagers living off your parents teet roleplaying revolutionary from behind a 2000 dollar screen. Fuck off.
Now downvote me instead of providing an actual argument, or proof these camps are "invented", because you're a bunch of cowards who would rather parrot nonsense than read literally anything.
Love living in an age where everyone's mom has a cell phone with a high resolution camera and Tor/Freenet capability yet somehow nobody can get photos of the camps where supposedly 80% of Xinjang's population (that would be around 16M human beings) is caged.
Love living in an age where people are okay with ANYONE being foreable re-educated due to their ethnicity or religion....
Just because they exhagerate the crime, doesnt make it right.
Forced camps are racist cop shit. Yall are bootlickers
What is your solution to cia funded Islamic radicalization and separatist movements intended to destabilize the region? Re-education camps are the moral response.
That's you with a helping of "Muslims are too incompetent or too hateful of other Muslims to condemn China, but I, with a friend in China, know what is really happening."
Could you point me to evidence of this? I'm open for any and all credible evidence. I think the main contention is that the only evidence is provided by CIA sources.
If you are going to declare literally ANY new source a CIA shill, then I don't know what to tell you. If you can look at the satellite imagery of homes being destroyed en masse, and camps being built and say: "that is 100% consensual redevelopment and vocational training" ... I don't know what to tell you. You need to get on a plane, fly to Urumqi, sit through about 2 weeks of beauracratic bullshit, then go speak to people on the ground. Muslims are treated like second class citizens. Theyre constantly discriminated against, they get lower pay, they have 0 control over their futures inthe country, and they are legit scared. Go to a cafe, and watch Han people throw food and napkins at Muslim waiters, and shout insults at them. Sometimes you actually need to leave your basement and see the world...
You cant GET a muslim to speak to you most of the time, because they're fucking scared, and 95% of the time your government escort is strongarming you into 100% han businesses/areas.
And AGAIN if you think all 300 of these sources are CIA propaganda... I dont know what to say to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
Lmao the "sattellite pics" turned out to be schools and offices lol
Source? For the ~400 plus camps...
A school you have no choice in leaving isn't a fucking school.
Oh no, 1 source is Zenz. The other 299 just refer back to him.
Edit: Lmao, the pic is not even one of the camps, if i remember correctly it was just a regular prison.
Have you seen this guy's videos?
https://youtu.be/dCNgYKBgZtc?t=202
https://youtu.be/DF02xWgkAJ0?t=246
He's a Chinese-Canadian who visited Xinjiang recently. I take it you're basing a lot of your claims on your experience living in Western China. How long ago was this and in what area? Are you currently living there right now?
K, start reading https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit
This isn't a source, this is an absolutely rambling manifesto.
What is the point of this document? It seems to be a combination of:
a) justifying the vocational camps by providing evidence that muslims can be radicalized... which is the exact same racist imperialist justificationf for war/power bullshit we always see....
b) discrediting some of the reporting of the muslims camps by attacking the credibility of the sources... which yes, is a legit point... but theyre talking about a few of literally hundreds of sources now.
c)going on a long tyrade about how nice China is to minorities... which 1) who gives a shit its irrelevant to whats happening now and 2) is propaganda nonsense.
Go out and actually SPEAK to some Chinese people. Go visit China. My chinese mates are the FIRST to admit that Chinese people are not racist, but the government itself is PROFOUNDLY racist...
As leftists, how you can basically ignore the plight of working class minorities... because of a hardon for their government... is pretty fucking lame.
The big, long document CLEARLY states the goal of these camps WHICH EXIST: "To strictly prevent and crack down on extremist terrorism" and to "Hold high the banner of solidarity of all ethnic groups, and promote unity.... and recognition of chinese culture"
So basically they ADMIT its happening, and say its happening because ooooh scary terrorism, but really theyre doing it to promote "unity" which means: "Everyone act like han chinese people so we dont fight"
This whole uigher denial stuff started in our community as a REACTION to reddit claiming it was a second holocaust --- which it is NOT. We went over the top, in order to belittle them ironically for being so reactionary. They were blowing a bad thing: forced reeducation of 100,000s of minorities into: genocide of millions of people! Which is ridiculous because its out of proportion, and incredibly stupid given that America has literally murdered more muslims than LIVE in china...
But then everyone gets sent to chapo.chat for an echo-chamber treatment... and now the joke has turned into a bunch of edgy teenagers outright denying what is a very real, albeit slightly less devastating, human rights abuse.
Ya'll come off like holocaust deniers with your rambling google docs, and outright denial of piles of evidence its fucking embarassing.
For the record, my view on the camps is that:
Forcing people into the camps against their will for seemingly minor things like using a VPN isn't good obviously but
You can disagree with their means of dealing with it but I really don't see how the justification of dealing with terrorism is bullshit considering the region did actually have a legit terrorism problem before the program was put into place. Do you think Xinjiang did not have a terrorism problem?
A lot of the reporting I've seen tend to cite the sketchy stuff from Zenz, ASPI, state-backed human rights orgs, and media outlets associated with Falun Gong that gets debunked. Would be happy to revisit any of these sources or anything else that you think is legit.
I was under the impression the opposite was the case based on what happened with the Guangzhou covid incident (where the people were being racist and the government took steps to push back against it) and also on the affirmative action policies. I'd be interested in reading more about this if you could point me to some sources.
This comes across as a bad faith reading of their messaging. Again, do you think Xinjiang did not have a terrorism problem?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict#2007%E2%80%93present
Like is people being knifed to death and blown up every year somehow not scary (and a reasonable explanation for their call for unity)?
Assuming you're referring to stuff like them being made to learn Mandarin, I think that makes sense as a way of giving people more access to job opportunities and also as a way of easing racial tensions in as short a time as possible.
No investigation no right to speak
Trade schools are not camps and though ive no doubt China are heavy handed about it their overall goals -deradicalising a population that has been photographed all over Syria and Afghanistan joining Uyghur detachments for Isis and Al Qaeda has been a million more times humane than what the West does
On the topic of the West, why is it only Western nations (who have waged an actual genocide against muslims in our lifetime) have a problem with China while many eurasian/african and middleest countries have sent diplomats to Xinjiang and approved of the deradicalisation program?
Proof or it didnt happen. During the 1 child policy era ethnic minorities (including the Uyghurs) were allowed to have more children and there are a number of programs to get ethnic minorities into universities
You can't possibly argue that the Uighurs have had a good time in China... Its just... so separate from reality its impossible to debate with you.
Being exempt from the one-child policy has absolutely 0 connection to what its like to live in Western China as a minority.
Its like you're trying to tell me that Mexicans have had a great time in Arizona, because the Latin Chamber of Commerce offers scholarships to some students... You're completely ignoring the lived experience of the people on the ground... and their material/social disadvantages.
I know as fact that they've had it better than Afghanis, Iraqis, Yemenis, Syrians and Libyan muslims
All people destroyed by West who are the ones who now accuse China
But as i said...no investigation no right to speak so after you read through Mogs google document collection on Xinjiang you can come back and articulate your view
YES they have had it better than those absolutely persecuted peoples. That isn't a reason to stand by and condone racial prejudice... which is exactly what you are doing....
And there have been PLENTY of investigation, you just declare anything you disagree with as a CIA shill, which is incredibly myopic.
No investigation.. No right to speak
Ive been there.
You dont get to sit in your basement and declare that your ignorance is better than my lived experience, you powerlib.
So why do the only countries that denounce China on its Xinjiang policy amount to a map of Nato?
Why do 54 countries (a bunch of which are muslim majority countries or countries with a large population of muslims) who have sent diplomats to Xinjiang approve of the policy?
You have been deprived of your ability to speak
54 countries support forced reeducation of violent muslims.... that does nothing except prove that countries are willing to continue being racist in exchange for investment from China....
No one here is even DENYING that they have forced re-education camps. China admits it, yall are admitting it, and that stupid google document constantly admits it...
If you are PRO re-education camp in this camp: your interest in the working class, and the plight of minorities is nothing but performative. You dont believe all the shit you pat yourself on the back for.
I read the google doc, its nonsense... and you don't give me permission as to if/when/where I get to express my view.
But none of you would know that, because you’re a bunch of rich lib teenagers living off your parents teet roleplaying revolutionary from behind a 2000 dollar screenCoughs and blows smoke So yeah dude, so in order to convince them I was right, I, like, insulted them and made a generalization about their livelihoods that I'm sure they've never heard before.
Hell, I even believe you that the Han tend to be racist towards Muslims in Western China, but this shit is pretty stupid if you are actually trying to convince either the posters or lurkers here.
Edit: Downvote me all you want, but if you want to engage in a productive dialogue, it helps not to immediately go to generalized insults. But hey, continue to be frustrated by people's general antipathy towards you. If you wanna just insult people, that's cool, I can dig it, but insulting people and then expecting them to be at all responsive to your arguements is fucking hilarious in how dumb it is.
what would leftists actually DO if they were in consensus with NATO/CIA about Xinjiang? Are leftists going to organize some sort of effort for Uighurs that will supercede NATO/CIA? Would a consensus with the left cause NATO/CIA to defer to the left to come up with a "solution?" Do individual leftists with "lived experience", like yourself, have any say in what will happen in China? Does being an individual left voice in support of the NATO/CIA line have any value? Does it add anything? Does it take anything away? When everyone except some leftists agree that China is doing genocide does it matter to be a leftist that points out that "re-education camps aren't OK?" Do you think that by agreeing with liberals and NATO/CIA they will let you have a seat at the table?