not voting for trump but low key hope biden doesnt win so the material conditions of a failing America will be on full display

  • 42davenant [none/use name]
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    4 years ago

    I think AOC, Tlaib and Omar are not only good, but are very good. "But they aren't socialists!" - yeah well chocolate long johns aren't socialist, but they are fucking delicious and I'm glad they exist.

    Which speaks to my even more unpopular opinion: I think social democracy, while of course is not the end goal, is good. Like, materially improving people's lives via social democracy while at the same time working via direct action and organizing to bring about socialism, is good. I'm not gonna thumb my nose at making the lives of the working class better by pushing for universal healthcare, a strong social safety net, public pensions, and mass unionization.

    Which leads me to what is definitely my most unpopular opinion: I get the idea that social democracy only prolongs capitalist exploitation... but I'm not convinced that it absolutely is not one path to socialism, in the right circumstances.

    • KiaKaha [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      I get the idea that social democracy only prolongs capitalist exploitation… but I’m not convinced that it absolutely is not one path to socialism, in the right circumstances.

      The Fabian Society called. They want their 20th century hot take back.

      • 42davenant [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        That's a fair point, I'm not sure there's a lot of historical indicators either way. I guess my thought it is, say there was a serious drop in material conditions in say Norway - a drop large enough to potentially foment revolution. Do you think their social democratic setup would push people towards socialism? My gut says yes. Compare that to what we have in the US right now. It seems to me that we are so deeply ingrained with capitalism, that if we have revolutionary conditions here yeah socialism one direction we could go, but a lot others that are even worse.

        But this is all admittedly conjecture, I don't really know for sure and thus don't have a particularly strong opinion on it.

    • DonCheadleInTheWH [any]
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      4 years ago

      I reckon AOC is controlled opposition. They saw the firestorm that was Bernie in 2016 and have been hinging their hopes on a young, bright superstar. It also happened with Obama's meteoric rise. Once she secures some power in the party, she'll begin toeing the party line.

      • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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        4 years ago

        I reckon AOC is controlled opposition.

        She just beat out a former CNBC talking head who raised $2 million for a primary election; I find it hard to believe that would happen if AOC was controlled opposition.

          • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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            4 years ago

            Her role is to bring “progressive voters” back into the fold of DNC and continue the cycle of compromising with your political opponents.

            You always have to compromise to some degree to get anything done on a national scale. What's bad is making compromise your primary ideological belief, and losing the willingness to maximize the political power you have. But there's a big difference between doing those things and making any sort of compromise, ever.

            Her type of “progressives” will be the future of DNC, precisely to prevent a real leftist challenger from disrupting the order of the establishment.

            If AOC is the template for the future of the Democratic party, that's an enormous improvement over the current Democratic party even if it falls far short of ending capitalism. And if she keeps working on the issues she's worked on so far, and doesn't just coast on incumbency and drift to the right, that's going to create more space for leftist challengers, not less.

            Marijuana legalization is a good example of how this works in practice. At first you had some states experiment with medical marijuana, that cracked open the door for decriminalization, which cracked open the door for legalization, which has led to actual votes (maybe one has passed even) on decriminalizing or legalizing other recreational drugs. This has also pushed the conversation on the national level; recall that we went from Bill Clinton saying he "experimented" with pot but "did not inhale" to at least one major Democratic candidate talking about ending marijuana prohibition in 2020. None of this happens if you shut down the first steps in the right direction on the grounds that they don't go far enough, fast enough.

              • hogposting [he/him,comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                How do you think America got out of the Great Depression? It was FDR turning the country’s economy from “free market” capitalism into a centrally planned economy during WWII, with much opposition

                Wasn't that a compromise, though? He didn't end capitalism (as the left of the time wanted to do) -- he created enough safety nets and job programs to keep it going long enough to recover. And even within the New Deal there were compromises. Part of the reason the New Deal didn't do a whole lot for black people is because to pass it FDR needed the votes of Southern Dixiecrats.

                In an era threatened by a climate emergency, anything less radical will not be able to solve or mitigate the devastating effects of climate change.

                I absolutely agree that radical solutions are the only thing that can reverse the effects of climate change at this point. But mitigation? Yes, smaller changes can at least help, and they can help quite a bit. Say we do nothing to actually reduce carbon emissions, but we instead open the southern border, offer a fast-track citizenship process, and stop orchestrating coups (at least in the Western Hemisphere). On the scale of potential changes those aren't radical. Hell, Reagan offered amnesty to immigrants in the 1980s. But they'd mitigate the effects climate change will have on an enormous amount of people. If we're talking about material improvements -- and we should be -- isn't the ability to move to a wealthier country and not be treated as a second-class citizen a material improvement? Isn't the ability to build a leftist government in your home country and not have it hamstrung by capitalist opposition a material improvement?

                it will prevent radicalization of the US politics and perpetuate the theatrics of “progressives in the house” while people are being denied healthcare

                If we wound the clock back to January and replaced every Democratic politician with an AOC clone, Medicare for All would be at the top of the agenda today, just as it was at the top of Bernie's agenda. There would also be a significant climate change plan (the GND) high on the agenda. You might be right that it would prevent radicalization, but you're wrong that it would just be a dog-and-pony show while nothing material changes, because the whole premise here is that we'd be electing people who are genuinely pushing for big solutions to big problems.

                We already learned that from Obama, who campaigned as a progressive who will take on Wall Street and give hope to America, and we all know how that turned out.

                I don't buy that the existence of one fake progressive means all progressives are similarly fake. Shit, we had progressives prior to Obama who did a better job of walking the walk, so we know that Obama isn't the only option.

                Bernie Sanders conceded without getting even a single concession from Biden.

                What leverage did he have? What were his other options? Would Biden in any way be obligated to follow through on any concessions?

                What makes you think that AOC or other progressives will have the swaying power to resist them?

                Again, we're talking about a situation where the establishment is full of politicians like AOC. There's no one to resist.

      • mayor_pete_buttigieg [she/her]
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        4 years ago

        That's why Omar is the best American politician. She can't be controlled opposition because even the liberals are too racist to really throw support behind a Muslim woman.

        • DonCheadleInTheWH [any]
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          4 years ago

          Nah, she's a cryptotheological fundamentalist that defends Erdogan. Still love her, but stay wary.

    • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      I don't really have a huge issue with their domestic positions being overly moderate, but their support for imperialism is absolutely unacceptable.