"It is a complicated issue. It is truly a complicated issue, with a wide range of views, truly a wide range of views," Jean-Pierre said. "There is no 'yes or no' answer to this, it is complicated. There is a rule that the Department of Education [DOE] has put forward, and we're going to let that process move forward, and again, we want to make sure that while we establish guardrails with this rule, we also prevent discrimination, as well, against transgender kids. But again, a complicated issue with a wide range of views, and we respect that."
"Absolutely no reason for the Biden admin to do this," New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wrote. "It is indefensible and embarrassing. The admin can still walk this back, and they should. It's a disgrace."
"Honestly, this move by Biden to push a rule on trans kids in sports is not only a backwards betrayal, it [forces] us to have to spend our time dealing with god d*** sports instead of criminal bans on our healthcare," Alejandra Caraballo, a civil rights attorney and LGBTQ+ advocate, wrote. "He could have just done nothing. This is legitimizing transphobia."
The mOsT PrOgReSsIvE Administration in History™ 
"A complicated issue with a wide range of views, and we respect that" Fuck off out of here with that "centrist" nonsense. There's nothing complicated about it, and it's not an issue unless you want to turn it into one and want to appeal to people's emotions like Republicans are doing. It was only a matter of time before they'd start throwing trans people under the bus. I guess with the coming elections it's as good a time as ever.
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Every time lmao
As a trans person (ftm) first, the reason that this statement from Biden is so problematic isn't just about the sports thing.
The issue is that the administration is legitimizing a Trojan horse of bigotry. "Trans people shouldn't be in sports" is a wedge issue being used to push trans people out of public life. We're already going from sports, to chess, to trans children having their healthcare taken away.
If the admin was on our side they would have decried these bigots, but by releasing this mealy mouth "Well its complicated..." statement they've given legitimacy to anti-trans rhetoric.
As an aside, no, trans people who have been on hrt over a year do not have advantage in sports:
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked
Thanks for the response. I guess I should’ve stated in my response it wasn’t about them giving the statement which in hindsight is dumb since that is what the thread was about.
I see what you’re saying about the repercussions of them giving the republicans any sort of validity in what they are doing. I’m sorry about everything happening
I appreciate the link. I read the “HECOX V LITTLE - SAFER DECLARATION” study that was in it and it pretty much answered my questions/doubt that I had.
I take back what I said but I’ll leave it up to get what I deserve. I encourage anyone who had similar thoughts as mine to read this
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/hecox-v-little-safer-declaration
Edit: should have used expert declaration instead of study
The difference between you and Republicans in this issue is that you don't want to be called a Republican.
Everything before the "but" can be discarded as bullshit.
"Please give me brave upvotes and Reddit gold for my totally not bigoted take."
That translates as "make the politics invisible to people comfortable with the status quo."
That's not how burden of proof works. You're not correct until other people prove you wrong. If you're going to have a strong conviction on this, then it's your duty to be informed. You should be able to back up what you claim. Otherwise you're asking everyone else to be well-sourced except for yourself. You make the claim, you provide the studies.
What does that mean? Who is making newborns lift weights to test their strength? Males at birth barely have bones because they're still forming and solidifying. What are you talking about? What is genetic strength?
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That's not a study. It's a bible site that citing other bible sites. You asked us for studies, where are your studies?
bigot using the bible to steal people's rights, a tale as old as time
Real "I searched for something really quickly when called out on my preconceived notions and all I could find was this" energy
holy fuck, if that's the kind of internet research you're doing then the school system failed you hard.
You say that but feel free to read the study I linked in here.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/2613916
It mentions exactly what that website says because it’s real. I’m sorry you aren’t able to google it yourself if you don’t trust the source
The study is from a bunch of bigots
so no, I won't read it
Edit to the edit: More
Edit to the edit to the edit: I see what happened, I got to the comment after it had been edited and OP put in the expert testimony. Removing snark but leaving in quotes. Good on you for changing your mind.
Yeah sorry I shouldn’t of used the word study
It also provides a very thorough and detailed explanation for why trans athletes should be able to participate in the division that matches their gender. I just edited in some quotes for you.
lmao allow me to cite this website as evidence that the earth was created in seven days
Kys transphobic asshole
I'm all for trans rights/
I've got pride flags in my yard/
I support those brave souls who step out of the closet/
But when it comes to trans athletes, I think that's a step too far/
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal
You should educate yourself on the biology before forming an opinion. Reality doesn't mesh with how you're interpreting things right now. I'm positive somebody better educated than either of us will chime in shortly with links to some helpful resources.
I welcome it, like I said in my post, I would like someone to change how I think about this with factual information. Can you please tell me where I’m wrong with stating the biological advantages of male vs female though in my example
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I'm honestly not familiar with the details, but there are (and have been for a long time) rules about having to be X months or years into transition before competing. At that point the body has undergone enough changes that there's no meaningful difference in athletic ability from a cis athlete.
Even better, puberty blockers would completely short-circuit the """problem""" by making it so people don't have to go through the wrong puberty in the first place. I'm pretty sure the chuds know this and it's half the reason they're screaming to ban youth healthcare
Well thank you for this information.
In regard to the last statement wouldn’t this only be relevant to people who under the transformation at a young age?
it seems like people are most worried about middle/high school sports, since (most?)pro sports don't really allow multiple sexes to join. It's part of the bullshit "we gotta protect the children!" that comes from people who are ok with immigrant children in cages. Conservatives cry about how parents should be in control, not schools, and then a parent allows their kid to transition so conservatives(and Democrats) throw a shitfit.
no, the athletic advantages— higher bone density and thicker muscle fibers— are reversed within a year or two of HRT no matter how old you are when you start
Obviously, but that doesn't matter. It's just an especially stark contradiction and really gives up the game the bigots are playing here.
Every attempt at a """solution""" has another reason why it's bad, so fuck the debate, the solution is full rights full stop. Just like every other goddamn time we've debated people's rights.
ten bucks their "solution" is going to start ending up as a "final solution"
And that's why the solution is
, as usual.
I wish I could help you there. I used to be on your side on this issue, and somebody on Hexbear graciously sent me some resources to read. I was very wrong.
I didn't keep them, though. I'm sure somebody will come bully you a bit (this is very bullyable, sorry, I don't make the rules), but also give you the links.
Yeah I expect to get bullied on this but I hope someone can come in and provide me with the info you saw. Im not even close minded person either, im open to changing my view but everyone now a days on the internet never thinks people are open to changing their opinion. Hence, the bullying especially if they can’t present sources
this is not debating the history of one or two events, YOU'RE DEBATING THE RIGHT OF TRANS PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN SOCIETY! MY RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE IN SOCIETY!
also the HRT steals your muscles, you think we take it just for the breasts?
Thank you for saying it. I’m so tired of saying it.
We bully you for the liberal reading the thread who might change their mind. Bullying works.
Good on ya for also being the liberal reading the thread today.
Trans women on anti androgens actually have lower levels of testosterone than cis women which leads to increased muscle atrophy which actually makes the average post transition trans woman weaker so the strength thing is bullshit. We can see it represented in how few trans gold medallists there are.
Idk about what it's like in the US but in the UK the entire trans people in sports is being pushed as a liberal justification for general exclusion of trans people from society, the best example of this is the banning of all trans people from the women's chess league - trans women have no biological advantage but they're being banned anyway, and trans men are having their titles stripped from them too. The purpose isn't fairness in sports, that's just a justification for enforced transphobia.
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I propose we make every NBA athlete participate in a bench press competition. If any athlete benches more than another athlete in the same weight class then it's proof they are genetically stronger, and should be forced to play in a different league,
I get so sick of the "I'm concerned about this particular issue" people that have clearly not looked anywhere for info except the inside of their own head, or the words of bigots who are "just asking questions."
It would literally take a simple google search to find out that there isn't a meaningful difference.
I have googled this issue, well bing but whatever. I must be reading the wrong sources so can you please provide me with some that I must have missed?
And yet when i wondered what the truth was i was able to find it immediately. I just don't find what you're saying remotely believable
I'm sorry to say this, but like most cis people who like to talk about trans people's bodies, you have no idea what you're talking about. You talk about scientific facts, yet lack any understanding of what transitioning even does to a person's body. You often see transphobes throwing around their "biologically male" line when talking about trans women, when it goes against all reality. You people with these "opinions" always leave out the fact that a trans person's body goes through various changes that affect one's biological composition. Hormone therapy doesn't just change someone's appearance. It also changes various biological processes, including bone density and loss of muscle mass. If you'd even do the most basic of research on trans people, you'd know that trans people talk about these things all the time, because they're very obvious changes that you cannot ignore. As a matter of fact, the irony is that there are many trans women who have even lower testosterone levels than most cis women, due to how much androgen is being suppressed with HRT. All of this stuff is medically known.
Yeah, you're going to be ripped apart for this, because your so called "support" for rights is purely performative if you're undermining those very rights with misinformation.
No, it wasn't. Wtf? It's never been an issue until conservatives maliciously turned it into an issue. How many cases of trans women dominating sports do you about? I would like to know. Trans people are a very small minority. The amount of trans people who play sports is even smaller. Out of that tiny tiny minority, how many even play on a professional level? This wasn't going to become an issue. And you can't take the politics out of it, because turning this into an issue when there's a completely lack of evidence that the issue even exists, is very much a political act.
I think it would be more fair for you to provide sources for the claim that amabs are naturally more athletic before asking people to debunk it.
I did to a reply in another comment
No you didn’t. You linked to a mf bible website😂😂😂
Here is backup info
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980468/#:~:text=Males'%20lungs%20are%20bigger%20not,males%20%5B6%2C%2012%5D.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201207/the-battle-the-sexes?amp
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7930971/
Those articles don’t say what you’re even trying to say ya fuckin bigot
bro is scrambling in the google search bar
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'muh freeze peach' weirdos not being bigoted challenge: Impossible
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yeah, we are “nuts” for defending trans rights. we are one of the few places on the internet that is 100% safe for trans ppl. if you dont like that you can leave. we have no room for bigots and if you keep trying to debate peoples existence and use reactionary language you’ll just catch a ban
We were before federation.
we’re still good at purging bigots. we just get a lot more of them now
I'm not saying our mods have let their guard down, i like that every bigot waltzing in here gets dogpiled immediately as well, but we would never have had a thread like this before federation. Look at what's going on here, it's as if i'm on one of the few radlib subreddits where the mods actually recognize and ban transphobia. I get that this is educational for a lot of lemmy libs, i'm not saying we should defederate, but we should have a hexbear only part of the site where all the nazi pigs from lemm.ee or these bazinga brained techbro instances are not allowed in. A place where i do not have to put up with this shit. I want to be able to completely tune out this fediverse garbage. I get that it's god for recruitment and educating left-leaning folks, i see a merit in that we federated on an agitprop level, but to me as a person, as a user of thisn site it's worthless and even harmful. I have enough fights to fight every day. I do not come here for more of that, i came here to shitpost and blow off steam in a safe environment and i do not have that safe environment anymore because this place is overrun with liberal cissie pigs "just asking questions". There's a reason i post so much less nowadays, it's just better for my overall wellbeing to hang out on left-ish trans discords instead. They're also full of libs, but at least those libs usually do not want to argue their right to misgender me or why it's complicated to not speak out about us being denied the right to exist in public.
do you want to mod here https://hexbear.net/post/492322 (new hexbear-only comm)
carcosa is down for longtime users such as urself to mod this comm without submitting a mod application
On one hand, hexbear is the only place where me being a mod could work in theory because i'm just too guillotinee to mod any other community, on the other "let's become a mod and personally take care of all the shit i normally don't have to see" is kind of the exact opposite of what i wish from this site.
i understand, but with this comm you just have to ban anyone who posts there with a non-hexbear acct. reading their comments isnt necessary. im sorry if seems im brushing away ur concerns, i just thought this new comm addresses some of those concerns and wondered if you’d like to help maintain it
Look, i appreciate your trust and the effort going into this, but ... idk, maybe i'm misunderstanding what the plan is, so let me recap to see if we're on the same page: This is one comm that isn't even actually seperate from the reddit shit, but requires us to manually ban the droves of people from other instances who will see it on the top of their front page and will obviously not get they're not allowed to post there? How is this supposed to work, let alone fix anything?
we can request other instance admins to block that comm instance-wide. if some admins dont then yes, we will manually ban users. but they wont even see it in their “all” feed unless someone in their instance subscribes to it. its just supposed to function as a haven away from the rest of the fediverse. idk if it’s going to “fix” anything but i think it will be nice to have a safe haven where it’s just hexbears. ik it doesnt address ur concerns well, but perhaps it would be helpful if you reiterated those concerns in a c/feedback post so we could have a discussion abt it wider than just the two of us :)
I've just aired all of this in a big, emotional post in the pinned announcement thread for the den. Sorry in advance when one sentence there comes off as calling you out, i had to vent. Like, really had to. From what i've seen after writing that, local-only comms actually do not seem hard to implement, we may have those soon and i damn hope so because that's the only way i'm staying on this reddit-ass site.
no worries :)
cant argue with any of that. i especially agree we need a hexbear only comm/comms. im sorry this federation has driven you away, i miss ur presence on hexbear and im sure many others do too. it gets worse when we federate one instance at a time bc we’re opening a new floodgate every other week and as soon as things calm down we open another. once we federate widely enough and ban the bad faith non-hexbear users, im sure things will be much calmer
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clearly. explain how this is “complicated”
That.
From transphobia to ableist slurs
Why do you say that?
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ah there it is
you will get criticized for your dumb opinions, if you have a spine maybe just take it instead of crying
When we federate with sh.it ?
Every post from them is dogshit.
but honestly we're probably going to bully them off their own platform at this rate so I'm all for it
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Please die, thanks
I see you've run afoul of our "Post"-based rules here. I can give a quick explanation if you'd like?
I will eat you
Piss off
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I implore the misses, the good sirs of our day and age, regarding the mixing of the Cisgenders and the Transgenders, I implore them great weariness.
For you see, dearest members of our Reddit Community, fellow liberally minded members of the audience, the Female Genome is fragile in form compared to the Male. Often times the AFAB chromosome forms the shape of a gentle flower or teacup (much too small to indulge in the morning beverage, to my dismay).
In addition, athletes are born equipped with the muscles they shall employ in their respective professional arenas! I am certain we have all seen dazzling images of the Muscle Baby Training Facilities.
With this knowledge, I am with absolute certainty that "hormone replacement therapy" has no effect whatsoever on this musculature.
Thusly, the following conclusion must be made: The mixing of the Transgender and the Cisgender threatens the entire art of sport and recreational roughousing that has captivated our civilized society for many a year.
(Attempts to be "nuanced" about allowing people to express themselves in a way that fits their gender identity is just transphobia.)
Trans women have been able to compete in the correct categories in the Olympics for several of the games now. I think like one trans woman has, in the weightlifting category in the 2020 games, and she didn't place.
Trans women in sports is not common. That's why a trans swimmer coming in like 3rd in one of the six races she's competing in that day is a weeks-long conservative hate-fest. That's why an individual trans person competing at all is sometimes newsworthy. Often, when suits are filed against school districts because transgender athletes are competing in their proper categories, the suits are filed against like 3 people (and one time they were just using the court system to be shitty to one literal child). Some suits are even dropped, because everyone they're targeting graduates.
The idea of cis men pretending to be trans women to dominate women's sports is a manufactured reason to demonize a handful of specific transgender people and build animosity towards trans people in general.
here's a novel option for you and all other people: go back to not caring at all about kids' sports because it straight up does not matter
There are studies. Did you even look?
Least pathetic Ledditor
At my place of employment, there's a women who is younger but bigger than me in every way who could kick my shit in. There's also a man who is smaller than me in every way I could throw around like a small child.
So clearly the issue here is not our dicks n' puss, buddy
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sir I wish I could ignore the difference between genders, would make dysphoria easier to handle
also you know thats not whats happening here, you're not clever
Margo Dydek is a 2.18m/7'2'' tall cis woman who played basketball, does that not give her a genetic advantage over shorter basketball players? Should she be disqualified from competing with other women?
In many cases, there's already a league like that - it's called the men's league. Of course, due to the wave of transphobic laws purportedly aimed at "fairness," there are many cases of trans men being forced to compete in women's leagues against their will. Because it's not about fairness at all, it's about hurting trans people, and the reason this is where the focus is is that it's currently where the line is. If they win on this, they will shift focus to attacking us on a different front.
You don't really get to choose where the line gets drawn or the specific, nuanced policy that gets implemented. You just get to influence, ever so slightly, which way the current flows. Maybe we could have a conversation if there wasn't a large, committed movement trying to kill us, but as it stands, it's vital that we don't give them a single inch, because they will take a mile.
Here's one. Though tbh I haven't looked that closely at the data because I think it's largely irrelevant, especially when it comes to school sports.
The point of sports, especially for kids, is to encourage exercise and socialization, and trans kids are particularly in need of those things, because those factors are essential to mental health. Even without the government going out of its way to fuck us, trans people are already more limited in what spaces we feel safe in. I think anyone who cares more about the fairness of competitions than they do about the physical and psychological well-being of children in a vulnerable group needs to seriously re-evaluate their priorities.
Yes we should also ban cis women with naturally higher levels of testosterone in the name of fairness.
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