If you really can't keep track of conversations in your head at least look at the context of each comment you reply to so you don't look like a stupid wall people are talking to
There are a few literal Nazis on both sides. Ukraine doesn't have any in the government or high command apparatus
Zelensky thanked and did a photo shoot with the Nazi Andriy Biletsky (leader of the Azov Battalion, said his goal is to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade… against Semite-led Untermenschen”); Zelensky also wears and advertises Nazi merchandise [1] [2]. And Ukrainian parliament and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine openly celebrate Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera (he has monuments all over Ukraine). So your claims of no Nazis in govt or high command are completely incorrect.
“Nazis on both sides” is nonsense, and before the war demanded every western source to support Ukraine, the Neo-Nazi problem in Ukraine was widely publicized and documented [1] [2] [3] [4]. Clearly the US realized how many Nazis there were in Ukraine to the extent that they lifted regulations on congressional funding of Neo Nazis when supporting Ukraine. Maybe before giving up it’s sovereignty Ukraine can try to remove its monuments to Nazi collaborators, purge Nazis from office, and stop being a U.S. vassal state.
Oh sorry, I thought you meant that there were no Nazis in Russian power when you said 'nazis on both sides' was nonsense. So your saying Nazis are in higher places of power in Ukraine than Russia?
Damn can you for a second think about systematic versus individual arguments? Nobody thinks there are no Nazi's with power in Russia (though the biggest ones were recently killed). It's about how those ideologies function in Russian and Ukrainian socio/political-economic situation.
In Russia, they are systematically oppressed, with many far right figures calling Putin jewish-supporting and anti-right wing for the way that their organizations are systematically kept down. There were celebrations of collaborators after the 90's that have consistently been stopped by police and people arrested for long times for partaking in recent decades.
Meanwhile, regardless of INDIVIDUAL Nazi's (which on this front is still many more, but I don't really care about that), Ukraine is incorporating the ideological functions of, and avoiding any critique of, the Nazi collaboration supporters. More people are picking up the symbols of Nazism, people are using the language and ideological underpinnings of Nazism to discuss Russians in orientalist and anti-Semitism-influenced language about how lesser and Asian they are.
In one country, such talk is dying off as it's oppressed away and in the other it's growing and becoming only more popular.
So you're saying they're not more present in the Ukrainian government? I'd like to see your proof for this. @robinn2@hexbear.net has given you a great analysis with sources highlighting the involvement of Nazis in Ukrainian government positions. So far your response has been "well what about that mercenary?"
Stop being obtuse and cute about it, if you have some actual proof and basis for your claims, share it
Great engagement with someone showing you how Nazis are structurally integrated in Ukraine. If you think the same for Russia FUCKING PROVE IT. And don't link me to some lazy-ass YouTube video citing Kiev independent. Show me your analysis
They were being used as cannon fodder with the intent to destroy them, and their leadership was assassinated by Putin. Doesn't exactly seem like Russia is a fan of them
The comment was saying that it's bogus that there are Nazis on both sides. I asked if the Wagner Nazis were Russian. It directly relates to the claims.
Ukraine also has may 9th, Victory Day over Nazism in World War II. Are you taking about defender's day? I didn't find any holidays that fit your description.
I'm not the only one getting tired of you speaking as if with authority and needing to be taught fundamental aspects of the topics you're talking about.
Is Wagner a Nazi paramilitary, or a penal legion? One day I hear they are a bunch of ideological soldiers just like Azov, next I hear that it's full of Russian prisoners trying to shorten their sentences.
Holy shit I didn’t know that that Utkin piece of shit was on that plane. He was the only guy liberals could come up with when they were saying that Nazis were also in Russia too (although he had not been seen in public since 2016). Once again I must express my critical support for Putin, especially when he’s mercing Nazis. Odd that liberals haven’t praised Putin for doing this, since I thought they hated Nazis?
Favored by Putin and given special latitude. You aren't going to start a pmc without serious political capital, plus Putin had been commissioning them for a long time.
And the strength of these connections is why hiring and then killing off a mercenary makes the Russian government the nature of being nazis in the same way Ukraine having actual nazi politicians in charge does?
Why do you argue so fucking far past the point it's obvious you're wrong? You're an entire branching comment tree in this post. You never give up on a single point but you're getting bodied left and right.
Why do you argue so fucking far past the point it's obvious you're wrong? You're an entire branching comment tree in this post. You never give up on a single point but you're getting bodied left and right.
I'm laughing so hard I almost shat my pants reading this thread
Do you think Progodion was not important in the Kremlin? It's really hard to sort out the web of connections and allegiances, but it seems like Progodion was pretty important, and getting more important and dangerous as Wagner gained notoriety.
No more answering questions with questions. Go back and justify the connections you implied with "favored" and "latitude"
You need to actually fucking say something substantial now. None of this mind palace bullshit. What was his role if not as a mercenary? If he was important at the Kremlin what was his position there?
STOP ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW THINGS. SAY WHAT YOU KNOW.
He was a general of a portion of the Russian army. The most effective portion, giving him a lot of pr. That made him a pretty popular general, which is dangerous for the leader in the best of times.
I'd recommend these for more info on him. They're very well researched and presented. The second and third are long tough.
He was a general of a portion of the Russian army.
No he wasn't. He was the general of a mercenary outfit. He got a lot of PR because he's a nazi and the media your dipshit youtube personalities regurgitate for you has a vested interest in doing a 'very bad people on both sides' because they want you to support an explicitly fascist government. He was effective because they used him for the worst fighting. He's a mercenary. Their job is to die so you don't lose soldiers that hurt you politically. That's also why he was pissed off. The thing that made him dangerous was the part where he fired on Russian military and civilians.
If you want me to engage with your sources you need to go through the video and find them. And just to get ahead of the ball: if you link "Radio free _____" or the Kiev Independent I'm just going to talk about the sources themselves.
Poll by Rating, a Ukrainian research institute, shows positive opinions of Stepan Bandera (Jew exterminating Nazi) soaring from 22 per cent in 2012 to 74 per cent in April 2022. (post maidan revolution in 2014)
Those opinions are stronger the further you get away from Russia. They are weaker in Crimea and Donbass.
The left wing parties in Ukraine have been banned.
Russia isn't trying to absorb Ukraine. They would absolutely broker a deal to take back Crimea and Donbass and leave the rest. A significant number in those places are ethnically russian (it's the largest ethnicity proportion in the area ~ 39%) and a higher proportion than just ethnic Russians are open to becoming part of Russia (~49%)
Don't both sides the issue, the Nazis in Ukraine command its military and hold office. To the point where even pro-Ukraine news can't blur out all the swastikas, wolfsangels, black suns, and Bandera portraits.
And I agree, Ukraine should be sovereign. Which is why it must reject its current government that was installed by the US via coup. The people the Ukraine should be fighting are their compradors, not the Russians.
didn't even upload these, they've been up since 2022. they still work fine for me even on a fresh browser and a shift-reload. might be an imgur problem and we're hitting different servers
I'm pointing out it's nonsensical to site getting rid of Nazis as a justification to invade when you also have the same problem. What about ism brings up unrelated wrongs, this is showing hypocrisy.
I don't see people on here saying Nazis are the reason it started so much. Most people's take is that Russia is lashing out against encirclement by opposing powers, and also to annex parts of Ukraine that according to polls, don't want to be part of Ukraine anymore.
Western funding of Nazis is just a tried and tested mechanism of levering power against a state.
It's not the reason that Russia started their offensive, but it is a fact that the CIA funds right wing militants to fight on the behalf of the USA's economic interests. They have done so time and time again throughout history, from Europe to Asia to Africa.
Now, as Ukraine rules with western support, they have outlawed left wing parties. This has rather predictably ended with higher rates of admiration of the Nazi Stepan Bandera, the repeal of labour laws, and the mass privatization of the country.
This is typical economic shock doctrine. If Ukraine wins, its people will be the new low wage manufacturers and workers for the world to use and discard for profits. If Russia wins, it's also not great at this point - they'd likely be contending with western funded guerillas, and who knows if Russia would actually reinstate the repealed labour laws and left wing parties, given that Russia itself is a capitalist oligarchy.
There are a few literal Nazis on both sides. Ukraine doesn't have any in the government or high command apparatus.
Why is the meat grinder unnecessary? Should Ukraine just give up it's sovereignty and become part of Russia? If not, the war remains necessary.
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GOOD post
Do you think Wagner is not Nazi, or is not Russian?
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it takes a dozen of us to wrangle the sheer amount of idiotic brainworms you have
Cool cool cool. Anyway, you were saying there are only Nazis in Ukraine command and not Russia's?
If you really can't keep track of conversations in your head at least look at the context of each comment you reply to so you don't look like a stupid wall people are talking to
when did I say that
also difference between an entire army sporting nazi symbolism and russia having their planes' shot down
Zelensky thanked and did a photo shoot with the Nazi Andriy Biletsky (leader of the Azov Battalion, said his goal is to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade… against Semite-led Untermenschen”); Zelensky also wears and advertises Nazi merchandise [1] [2]. And Ukrainian parliament and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine openly celebrate Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera (he has monuments all over Ukraine). So your claims of no Nazis in govt or high command are completely incorrect.
“Nazis on both sides” is nonsense, and before the war demanded every western source to support Ukraine, the Neo-Nazi problem in Ukraine was widely publicized and documented [1] [2] [3] [4]. Clearly the US realized how many Nazis there were in Ukraine to the extent that they lifted regulations on congressional funding of Neo Nazis when supporting Ukraine. Maybe before giving up it’s sovereignty Ukraine can try to remove its monuments to Nazi collaborators, purge Nazis from office, and stop being a U.S. vassal state.
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Oh sorry, I thought you meant that there were no Nazis in Russian power when you said 'nazis on both sides' was nonsense. So your saying Nazis are in higher places of power in Ukraine than Russia?
Damn can you for a second think about systematic versus individual arguments? Nobody thinks there are no Nazi's with power in Russia (though the biggest ones were recently killed). It's about how those ideologies function in Russian and Ukrainian socio/political-economic situation.
In Russia, they are systematically oppressed, with many far right figures calling Putin jewish-supporting and anti-right wing for the way that their organizations are systematically kept down. There were celebrations of collaborators after the 90's that have consistently been stopped by police and people arrested for long times for partaking in recent decades.
Meanwhile, regardless of INDIVIDUAL Nazi's (which on this front is still many more, but I don't really care about that), Ukraine is incorporating the ideological functions of, and avoiding any critique of, the Nazi collaboration supporters. More people are picking up the symbols of Nazism, people are using the language and ideological underpinnings of Nazism to discuss Russians in orientalist and anti-Semitism-influenced language about how lesser and Asian they are.
In one country, such talk is dying off as it's oppressed away and in the other it's growing and becoming only more popular.
So you're saying they're not more present in the Ukrainian government? I'd like to see your proof for this. @robinn2@hexbear.net has given you a great analysis with sources highlighting the involvement of Nazis in Ukrainian government positions. So far your response has been "well what about that mercenary?"
Stop being obtuse and cute about it, if you have some actual proof and basis for your claims, share it
How is your reading comprehension this bad?
it's a moral good though
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/s I hope
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It's not okay to use slurs against developmentally disabled people. It's not okay to use slurs against people with mental health problems.
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Yes, as has been explained to you already, it is demeaning to mentally ill people.
I hope you die :)
People suffering from mental illness.
you can get fucked, shitbag
Great engagement with someone showing you how Nazis are structurally integrated in Ukraine. If you think the same for Russia FUCKING PROVE IT. And don't link me to some lazy-ass YouTube video citing Kiev independent. Show me your analysis
They were being used as cannon fodder with the intent to destroy them, and their leadership was assassinated by Putin. Doesn't exactly seem like Russia is a fan of them
Whatabout. Whatabout? Whataboooouuuuut! ism.
Whataboutism
ad hominem!
I thought it was gone!
Whataboutbyrger! Whataboutism!!ism
The comment was saying that it's bogus that there are Nazis on both sides. I asked if the Wagner Nazis were Russian. It directly relates to the claims.
Ukraine has a national holiday celebrating their nazi leader from WW2. Russia has a holiday celebrating the defeat of the Nazis in WW2.
Ukraine also has may 9th, Victory Day over Nazism in World War II. Are you taking about defender's day? I didn't find any holidays that fit your description.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-celebrates-nazi-collaborator-bans-book-critical-of-pogroms-leader/
I'm not the only one getting tired of you speaking as if with authority and needing to be taught fundamental aspects of the topics you're talking about.
Is Wagner a Nazi paramilitary, or a penal legion? One day I hear they are a bunch of ideological soldiers just like Azov, next I hear that it's full of Russian prisoners trying to shorten their sentences.
Also "wHaTaBoUtIsM"
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
Doesn't matter Putin iced their leaders and took control. Denazification is happening. Trust the plan.
the USA has been pushing nazi ideology in Ukraine for 70 years
CIA: Undermining and Nazifying Ukraine Since 1953
That's not surprising for during the cold war.
TIL that supporting nazis is okay if they hate your opponent
Why are nazis aligned with your interests and why do nazis oppose your rival? Doesn't matter, repeat your mantra, "We are the good guys".
nice handwave. even if that excused pushing and helping nazis (it doesn't) you ignore the last 30 years they were doing it after that. very convenient
Would you say it's bad the US pushed and supported Nazi's around the world to fight communism?
They never stopped.
Dude, Valerii Zaluzhnyi literally has 2 busts of Bandera in his office.
Tldr, the commander of the armed forces of Ukraine is a nazi.
Post source of Nazis in leadership ranks in Russian military or government
Prigozhin has Nazi eagle tats off the top of my head.
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No, he's the Ukraine asov group that got wiped out, right?
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Holy shit I didn’t know that that Utkin piece of shit was on that plane. He was the only guy liberals could come up with when they were saying that Nazis were also in Russia too (although he had not been seen in public since 2016). Once again I must express my critical support for Putin, especially when he’s mercing Nazis. Odd that liberals haven’t praised Putin for doing this, since I thought they hated Nazis?
They wanted prigo to do a coup, they cheered for him and called Wagner freedom fighters during their little farce
Oh okay cool.
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But he was Russia inner circle. Till he decided to try and coup.
He was a mercenary.
Favored by Putin and given special latitude. You aren't going to start a pmc without serious political capital, plus Putin had been commissioning them for a long time.
Do those words mean anything? Favored? Latitude?
And the strength of these connections is why hiring and then killing off a mercenary makes the Russian government the nature of being nazis in the same way Ukraine having actual nazi politicians in charge does?
Why do you argue so fucking far past the point it's obvious you're wrong? You're an entire branching comment tree in this post. You never give up on a single point but you're getting bodied left and right.
I'm laughing so hard I almost shat my pants reading this thread
Do you think Progodion was not important in the Kremlin? It's really hard to sort out the web of connections and allegiances, but it seems like Progodion was pretty important, and getting more important and dangerous as Wagner gained notoriety.
No more answering questions with questions. Go back and justify the connections you implied with "favored" and "latitude"
You need to actually fucking say something substantial now. None of this mind palace bullshit. What was his role if not as a mercenary? If he was important at the Kremlin what was his position there?
STOP ACTING LIKE YOU KNOW THINGS. SAY WHAT YOU KNOW.
He was a general of a portion of the Russian army. The most effective portion, giving him a lot of pr. That made him a pretty popular general, which is dangerous for the leader in the best of times.
I'd recommend these for more info on him. They're very well researched and presented. The second and third are long tough.
https://youtu.be/1hE8CvA-Vlo?si=zgtpPdV5lY5jAo5u https://youtu.be/tP8VPkWXOfU?si=do2_txrH6BcEsjoZ https://youtu.be/va3UtYl6PUs?si=UUHjnKvMFHxT7NOq
I'm not watching your dipshit youtube videos.
No he wasn't. He was the general of a mercenary outfit. He got a lot of PR because he's a nazi and the media your dipshit youtube personalities regurgitate for you has a vested interest in doing a 'very bad people on both sides' because they want you to support an explicitly fascist government. He was effective because they used him for the worst fighting. He's a mercenary. Their job is to die so you don't lose soldiers that hurt you politically. That's also why he was pissed off. The thing that made him dangerous was the part where he fired on Russian military and civilians.
If you want me to engage with your sources you need to go through the video and find them. And just to get ahead of the ball: if you link "Radio free _____" or the Kiev Independent I'm just going to talk about the sources themselves.
Not anymore after his body fell thousands of feet from the sky lmao
Poll by Rating, a Ukrainian research institute, shows positive opinions of Stepan Bandera (Jew exterminating Nazi) soaring from 22 per cent in 2012 to 74 per cent in April 2022. (post maidan revolution in 2014)
Those opinions are stronger the further you get away from Russia. They are weaker in Crimea and Donbass.
The left wing parties in Ukraine have been banned.
Russia isn't trying to absorb Ukraine. They would absolutely broker a deal to take back Crimea and Donbass and leave the rest. A significant number in those places are ethnically russian (it's the largest ethnicity proportion in the area ~ 39%) and a higher proportion than just ethnic Russians are open to becoming part of Russia (~49%)
some sources:
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2023/01/ukraine-stepan-bandera-nationalist
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280134876_Terrorists_or_national_heroes_Politics_and_perceptions_of_the_OUN_and_the_UPA_in_Ukraine
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/
Don't both sides the issue, the Nazis in Ukraine command its military and hold office. To the point where even pro-Ukraine news can't blur out all the swastikas, wolfsangels, black suns, and Bandera portraits.
And I agree, Ukraine should be sovereign. Which is why it must reject its current government that was installed by the US via coup. The people the Ukraine should be fighting are their compradors, not the Russians.
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"bUt RuSSiA hAs nAzIs tOo!"
meanwhile in the Ukraine
EDIT: if imgur is crapping out for you, here they are reuploaded to hexbear:
"bUt RuSSiA hAs nAzIs tOo!"
meanwhile in the Ukraine
Gonna have to agree that Imgur seems to have borked your images somehow, even on hexbear, I get errors on those links
didn't even upload these, they've been up since 2022. they still work fine for me even on a fresh browser and a shift-reload. might be an imgur problem and we're hitting different servers
check edit
EDIT: also thanks for letting me know
Both of your links seem to be broken.
they work fine, your brain seems to be broken
No, it really isn’t working for me. I can’t see it from Lemmygrad or Hexbear.
It just says “Oops, we couldn’t find that page”
don't know what to tell you, they still work here. must be something spotty going on with imgur
Yeah I can't see them either
check edit, reupped to hexbear
reupped to hexbear for you since imgur appears to be having some sort of coherency problem
Thanks for the images lol.
They have been reuploaded to Hexbear so you can see them now.
W H A T A B O U T I S M
I'm doing it you mean?
I'm pointing out it's nonsensical to site getting rid of Nazis as a justification to invade when you also have the same problem. What about ism brings up unrelated wrongs, this is showing hypocrisy.
I don't see people on here saying Nazis are the reason it started so much. Most people's take is that Russia is lashing out against encirclement by opposing powers, and also to annex parts of Ukraine that according to polls, don't want to be part of Ukraine anymore.
Western funding of Nazis is just a tried and tested mechanism of levering power against a state.
It's not the reason that Russia started their offensive, but it is a fact that the CIA funds right wing militants to fight on the behalf of the USA's economic interests. They have done so time and time again throughout history, from Europe to Asia to Africa.
Now, as Ukraine rules with western support, they have outlawed left wing parties. This has rather predictably ended with higher rates of admiration of the Nazi Stepan Bandera, the repeal of labour laws, and the mass privatization of the country.
This is typical economic shock doctrine. If Ukraine wins, its people will be the new low wage manufacturers and workers for the world to use and discard for profits. If Russia wins, it's also not great at this point - they'd likely be contending with western funded guerillas, and who knows if Russia would actually reinstate the repealed labour laws and left wing parties, given that Russia itself is a capitalist oligarchy.
Yeah, what good things was Ukraine doing? Anything worth all those dead people? Of course not