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Fears of peace talks
What kind of bullshit Orwellian headline is this? Peace is GOOD, stopping the bloodshed is GOOD. We WANT less people to die.
Inb4 "acksually killing thousands over lines in the sand is good" rhetoric
Fears of peace talks
Peace bad, war good!
Did I get that right?
The best way to defend your home is to stop the bombs from falling on it. Unless you're not talking about people's homes, families, and friends, but rather talking about some arbitrary line in the sand that people should be sent to die for.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I'll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it's barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
I wonder what part of this is supposed to justify Russia's indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations
Lolyou think this is "indiscriminate"? Fuck, you should've zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you're disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Lol fuck you No I'm pleasantly surprised at how little violence against civilians has happened in Ukraine. They never for a moment did the all out war that the US has waged on so many countries. None of that justifies the acts of Russia, but it does mean that your view is so terribly skewed by your western propaganda that I can't imagine you being right about anything else lol
But also, you can look into my comment history if you want, for some good explanations on my position on Putin and Russia in this war. I have principles and material analyses. You have vibes
https://hexbear.net/comment/3746587 An example of a very simple version of why I critically support russia
Don't you steal enough from your tenants to be able to afford a reading tutor if you need one that badly?
Are they a landleech? I thought they were just a bootlicker and person of land apologist
One of their old messages implied that (asking how much rent they should charge). I have no idea if they generally claim it, let alone if it's actually true.
Mother fucker, I’m using a website not brigaiding, go fuck yourself you insufferable liberal scumbag
Fucking npc ass motherfucker
Well the world is sad that you’re here, do us all a favor eh?
Your herd is over yonder. You better get back over to them before you miss another gathering. Baa baa
Lol
No one is justifying the acts of Russia. They should not have invaded! But to act like there is no pretext to conflict and Ukraine is completely innocent is disingenuous. Peace is the better option.
I agree with you that peace is a better option, although I'm pessimistic about the outcome of such talks at this point.
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn't in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren't interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
nothing in the treaty forbade it.
"I'm not legally prohibited from doing this" is rarely a good argument
Well, no. No I'm not. I was just lazily pointing out that "Russia threw a series of temper tantrums so we should appease them" isn't a good argument either. My argument at least has the weight of a legally binding treaty behind it. As far as Ukraine goes, both powers were meddling there; Russia lost the game. That doesn't give them the right to invade, that was a choice that Putin made. He could have just as easily accepted that he's a loser, and tens of thousands OF HIS OWN PEOPLE would still be alive, not to mention Ukrainians.
Sooo... Your take is Putin should except he lost a game he wasn't playing? Really just a juvenile take. How often does a larger country go 'OH well let's just let this smaller former part of our country fuck with us.' ? Live in reality.
1989 Revolutions? Wholesale dismemberment of the USSR more like. And treaty didn't say it. The Russians sure as fuck did.
All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back
Not that Russia isn't taking casualties, but why do Ukraine supporters act like they're not the ones feeding their people into the meat grinder? Russia is dug in. You're sending children and old men into a turkey shoot.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Yeah, that's definitely what's going on here
We're talking about the fastest ways to stop bloodshed, not Russia. Do you think that ending the war is bad?
Have you ever come by the term: wicked problem? Secession movements are a prime example of a wicked problem.
They are, but while wicked problems (what Bostonians call "math") are very difficult to resolve to the satisfaction of everyone, some approaches are far worse than others.
Ukraine's approach -- failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements while running away from your largest neighbor and in to the arms of the U.S. empire, then skipping offramps in the lead up to the war and in its first months -- was a particularly bad one.
failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements
This. The later parts I have read about.
OSCE had a mission through the entire period 2014-2022 as observers and released daily reports of the region together with ceasefire violations so we can find it for pretty much any day online like this one from 2022-02-03, and you can look up others here.
I can't find it anymore but there was a video floating around of Zelensky inspecting the troops and telling them to stop attacking the DNR and the soldiers telling him straight up no. Although I can't find that video you can look at the election results from 2019, Zelensky ran on a platform of brokering a peace calming tensions with ethnic russians and general prosperity which is why Poroshenko accused Zelenski of selling out to Russia. A ton of people in eastern ukraine wanted things to calm down and that's why he got the most votes there, but the military and the neo-nazi paramilitaries kept on doing their thing and here we are.
For me this sounds not too (in relative terms) bad, on Zelensky's part. I live in the EU and many (possibly all) of our member states are rather bad at handling Neo-nazis (This is actually one of our most pressing issues, but broadly ignored by the public).
Usually those Nazis in Germany, Finland, etc. are not continuously shelling a section of their country for 8 years
Ahh. Here's a good start:
The country’s ultranationalist groups came to the fore in 2014, when they kickstarted massive street protests that led to the ousting of the Russia-friendly president Viktor Yanukovych...
Torch-bearing ultra-right activists regularly march to the beat of drums across the Ukrainian capital’s downtown, chanting, “Death to traitors of Ukraine!” During one scuffle at the memorial to a Red Army general killed in the second world war, an elderly woman approached a group of radical nationalists shouting, “Hang the Russians!” and defied them, saying: “I’m Russian, hang me!”...
In a series of violent actions that underline their strength, rightwing radicals in recent years have assaulted gatherings by LGBT and women’s rights activists, attacked Roma encampments around the country, derailed a lecture on the history of the Holocaust and brawled with pro-Russia veterans...
Yermolayev said in the past the government turned a blind eye to the rise of nationalist groups, using them as a scare tactic, but now the ultra-right has turned on the authorities. “The well-organised and aggressive nationalism in Ukraine is a child of the government. It has lost control over radical nationalists. [Petro] Poroshenko has lost that game.”...
International human rights groups have strongly criticised the Ukrainian government for failing to track down and punish those responsible for the acts of violence and intimidation. The government has promised to rein in the ultranationalists, but has taken no action...
That's a pretty good overview of the character of Ukraine's neo-Nazis, as well as some on the scale of the problem. It mentions they sent "volunteer battalions" to the separatist regions, but does not have tons of detail on what they were doing there. This one has more detail on that:
"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."
Dmitry – which he said is not his real name – is a native of east Ukraine and a member of the Azov battalion, a volunteer grouping that has been doing much of the frontline fighting in Ukraine's war with pro-Russia separatists. The Azov, one of many volunteer brigades to fight alongside the Ukrainian army in the east of the country, has developed a reputation for fearlessness in battle...
In this next section, note how the neo-Nazis are declaring they'll do whatever they want, and see themselves as held back by the actual military:
For the commanders and the generals in Kiev, who many in Azov and other volunteer battalions see as responsible for the awful losses the Ukrainian army has suffered in recent weeks, especially in the ill-fated retreat from Ilovaysk, there was only contempt. "Generals like those in charge of Ilovaysk should be imprisoned for treason," said Skillt. "Heads are going to roll for sure, I think there will be a battle for power."
The Ukrainian armed forces are "an army of lions led by a sheep", said Dmitry, and there is only so long that dynamic can continue. With so many armed, battle-hardened and angry young men coming back from the front, there is a danger that the rolling of heads could be more than a metaphor.
And of course:
This week, Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.
"The failure to stop abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly," said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International secretary general, in Kiev.
Sorry I only looked at the pictures and did not read the text jet. I will read it on some commute tomorrow. But the pictures are frightening as the recent global rise of fascism is. I'm worried of the times to come.
This is the point that's always lost on libs. They're full on blood and soil over soil and blood that isn't theirs. They can't imagine negotiationg peace so then people can stop dying.
"They'll die because Putin=hitler. I am the great history understander of our time. Just don't ask me about anything that happened between 2013 and 2022."
I would be so ashamed of actually posting this
Just don't answer, it looks less ridiculous
Very intelligent.
Why are you posting hex emojis outside of hexbear? You know that's against hexbear rules.
How would Ukrainians lose their homes/die if a successful peace deal was brokered?
It would have to be a really shitty surrender treaty to have the clause "Ukraine will surrender all land to Russia and will also die anyways." Like you realize this is useless and dumb hyperbole right?
What do you honestly think is going to happen to Ukraine if theres a ceasefire? Without using cartoon logic
The famine that affected the whole USSR, of which Ukraine was a part? What does that have to do with Russia, let along the "Tzar"?
Do you think Russia went to Ukraine and they sat down in a nice comfy living room with a fireplace and discussed one country handing everything they have over to the other?
I've seen them do the same thing with landlord apologia. They say something silly, get critiqued and then its "lol, no u"
Funny how these people think they deserve any equal respect or recognition as a human on this site (Remember le human!) when their honest to god conversational cadence sounds like a machine-translated speech algorithm. Would you respect this person's time if you met them for real? And if they started talking like this?
If being supportive of a sovereign nation that's been invaded doesn't make sense to you... Idk man. That's a shitty way to think.
A sovereign nation who's leadership drank the NATO kool-aid against the protest of their nuclear armed neighbor, goading them into a fight. The victims are the people of both nations.
That is somehow still more likely than Russia completely annexing Ukraine with less than half the East in their control
I'm sure you weren't one of the people celebrating whenever someone would post a video of that happening to a Russian on Reddit.
Reddit reddit reddit. That's all you children talk about. Why don't you just give in and make an account? It's all you talk about anyway.
You didnt deny it, which wouldve been easy. Something you dont wanna talk about?
Why not? We're gonna eat anyway, may as well make it fun
If Ukraine enters peace talks now, have they gained anything or put their country in a better position since the original peace talks, which were sabotaged by Boris Johnson and British intelligence, over a year ago? Have they gained any significant territory since what was proposed then? Is their army in a stronger position? Are any gains since then worth the losses?
Just looking at it from a purely pragmatic and realpolitik perspective, I don't see how anyone can argue that Ukraine has gained anything significant in this stalemate of a conflict. If they get similar results now, as what was on the table originally at the first peace talks, it means that their Western backers essentially sold a pipe dream to Ukraine that never materialised. Is the collective West ready to explain that to Ukraine, and the rest of the world? That they used Ukraine as a testbed for their weaponry against Russia, sold Ukraine a utopian fantasy that they'd be able to regain significant territory using Western weapons and tactics which never happened, and hundreds of tens to hundreds of thousands of people got killed or injured to accomplish very little.
Turns out that an offensive is really hard. Who would've thought? Definitely not centuries of military doctrine.
looks like they got back a bit east of Kharkiv & to the north bank of the Dneipr---long before this last big 'offensive' tho. Russia might've given that pittance of territory up in a peace deal ooth.
These Baltic and Polish dipshits should just be airdropped on to the frontlines if they want the war to continue so badly.
Without parachutes.
Ik, they are always so toxic, coming in and attacking people under the flimsiest pretext
Oh god I used a reaction emote oh fuck somebody please stop me
Please upvote this comment if you are a liberal and this headline gave you pause and maybe a nagging "are we the baddies?" moment of reflection
Not upvoting as a diehard commie, just to respect the vote. Would love to see an actual poll of libs on this
And then I read the article and remembered: reality is more complicated then good-bad.
A sociopath told you that you aren't capable of having moral judgements about people dying and that you needed to listen to vetted experts instead. It's not complicated actually. I contend that pointless death is in fact a bad thing
If you think there's glory in these deaths then stop cheering from the backfield and take the place of someone gang pressed off the street.
Even if I would do that I suppose you wouldn't be happier with the situation. And guess what, neither would I.
But that's what you're saying, right? These deaths are valuable just for the sake of fighting in some abstract sense? Because the bad guy is bad?
No, as I said in my first answer, there are no generally right or wrong answers. There are people dying because of some vanity project of the rich and powerful. I also hold the opinion, that those shall be prevented at all costs. But if my information on the conflict is correct and this war started as a civil war on the topic of secession, then the question get's hard to answer almost instantly, and also highly individual.
How can you both say that the war is a vanity project for the rich and powerful and the same time argue that the deaths caused by it have meaning?
Because for some people they do.
edit: In another post you mentioned the breakaway republics, there you have your examples. People who don't want to live under a certain regime or don't want to live under theirs anymore. Sometimes fighting is the only option left for people, and sometimes fighting people know they will die fighting.
It's like you have an opinion and don't all at the same time. Maybe reconsider your position.
The world is an unfathomably complex thing, even if you leave the people stuff out, and we all have lots of opinions and mostly none of the information.
I do realise that I don't have a say in the matter and neither should I. The one thing I know for certain is that optaining a truth is on a spectrum between hard and impossible.
This is a cringe that is certainly unfathomablely complex
Youre like the 80IQ backwoods Joker. No thoughts just endless monologue. Hilarious
Fears of peace talks
Seems like mask off moment. Now i will read the comments if i suspect the resident liberal warmongers are still on their lines.
EDIT: The condensed copium cloud over liberal posts is even denser than imagined, with multiple layers.
my thought as well.
How can anyone has fears of peace talks. jfc
...I'm sure Ukraine would gladly put down their arms and watch Russia fight eastern European countries instead, if they really want to make this their fight instead of Ukraine's.
and 
