It's beacuse a mutation of covid was discovered in minks. I'm sure they have already been added to the list of Victims of Communism. Pure hellworld. Fuck everyone who wears fur coats.

  • HeckHound [he/him]
    5·
    4 years ago

    If you can’t tell the difference between slaughtering animals for goods meant for public consumption and slaughtering animals for incredibly inaccesible luxury products that aren’t even meant to be consumed as food, then I don’t know what to tell you lol

    The condescending tone isn’t helping.

    Meat is not needed for public consumption, it’s a wasteful luxury product only made affordable by massive subsidies. Not all animals that people are ok with slaughtering are used for food, either. For example, male chicks are simply fed into a giant blender as soon as they are old enough to have their sex identified because they aren’t as profitable as female chicks, and yet there is no outrage over this from the general public.

    In other places around the world, animals like dogs and cats are used for “public consumption”, and yet the vast majority of Westerners don’t think that is morally acceptable despite it being a contradictory stance.

    And of course, if the real moral difference is whether an animal’s body is sold to the general public or the wealthy elite, then why does no one ever become outraged about cows being used to make leather Lamborghini seats or $3,000 luxury steaks? Isn’t that just as bad as fur coats?

    And it also leaves open the question of why should an animal’s moral worth be decided based on how it’s body parts are sold after it is slaughtered, or why we shouldn't apply the same standard to humans.

    Obviously wearing the skin of dead animals incites a more knee-jerk reaction than seeing meat so processed that it’s next to impossible to tell what the origin of it is.

    It actually doesn’t, or else people would react the same way to leather as they do to fur.

    In fact, you could replace all meat-products with lab grown meat and nobody will bat an eye,making me think that there’s probably a better way to deal with slaughterhouses than feeling really guilty about it and voting with your wallet

    Yeah, that’s all that leftist vegans care about: Shaming people into voting with their wallet. I love it when other leftists tell me the exact same shit as chuds whenever veganism comes up. Because of course I can’t possibly have put a lot of time and effort into trying to understand the moral and systemic issues inherent in animal exploitation, because I’m obviously just a moral scold who doesn’t realize that cows were put on earth to become burgers and that’s just the way it is.

    • mittens [he/him]
      5·
      4 years ago

      I was ready to be more confrontational for my retort but I really though about it and I'm still going to double down. But also I came up with a fucking wall of text and the only way I can get you to engage and hopefully retort with your own arguments is if you read it in good faith and I'm all for that shit. I don't mean to be condescending at all and that's on me. That being said here's a whooping wall of text:

      I really dislike the argument that meat is a "luxury product" nor any argument that asks the reader to subscribe to some form of stoichal deprivation. Spices are also luxury items, and in many regards its supply chain every bit of exploitative (since they are sourced from the third world and available at reasonable prices through blatant imperialism) yet people would look at you funny if you intend them to limit their intake to flavorless gruel for ethical purposes, and for good reason.

      But more crucially, I think people could all be painfully aware of where meat comes from, and they would still eat meat. Look at it like this, people know meat directly causes cancer and people still eat meat. And why wouldn't it cause cancer, we know meat with cancerous growths just have the visible tumors removed and still sold like it's a-ok meat. People joke about this shit, I've seen them laugh about it when eating unnaturally oversized chicken breasts and agree with you whole-heartedly about eating it being probably a bit hazardous while biting off a huge chunk of fried chicken breast. Like they could die painful deaths because of their meat eating habits and they still fucking do it, in the face of this, why would a moralizing argument about cows nobody has ever met work? Like it's their own well-being they're directly threatening. Practically self-harm and they still eat meat.

      So a more interesting question is why people eat meat despite all of it, despite it coming from dead animals and despite it being directly and provably harmful to oneself. And I think that it's the way meat is presented as an inert product, with all its background and origin erased. And the immediate reaction is that we need to make everyone painfully aware of what meat is made of and by God, PETA has tried, because they understand this very well and it doesn't work. And it never will because the consumption impulse doesn't even happen entirely at the conscious level, because performance displays about dead people labeled as meat is fighting against the sea of meat products represented with logos of happy cows in sterile refrigerators.

      And I like to think that lefties, of all people, should be immediately aware of commodity fetishism within the context of the meat industry because it could be easily reversed. Capitalism can commodify your own guilt and put a price tag on it. Capitalism can transform your guilt into a premium and sell it back to you as guilt-free meat. Capitalism can simply resort to selling meat alternatives as a premium alternative to meat, because that's where the profit motive is, and never aim to replace meat at all, which is what I presume the end game of any vegetarian.

      And I mean, I do see an alternative, maybe we should really run with how whitewashed meat is as a commodity, a meat that is only as valuable as it's own texture and flavor is, that is, the inmediate sensorial experience it provides, and just replace it with a "non-meat" alternative at the same price point. And it'd be a win-win, it's cheaper, it's healthier, environmentally friendlier and nobody would be none-the-wiser because nobody really eats meat because they like to see animals suffer, actually. Nobody would really think that much about it, if there was an alternative with no animal sacrifice involved that is experientially the same at the same price. Everybody would take it.

      And I do believe this is a nice segue that lets me take it back to them fucking minks and why people who wear mink coats are not as defensible, and why people detest them more. That's because people who purchase mink coats are really really concerned with them being made of mink. They simply cannot take any alternative because the entire value of a mink coat comes from the fact that it comes from a dead mink. Unlike meat, synthetic fibers that are made to resemble mink fur in just about every way already exist, and the sole reason why rich people still spend significantly more in authentic mink fur is because they really want to know it comes from a dead animal. The origin of a mink coat is not made invisible, it's ingrained into the commodity itself. It is flaunted for everyone to see. Ersatz mink simply would not do, it needs a written guarantee that several minks died while doing it and possibly even an appellation of origin.

      I don't want to be mean to anyone who chooses to not eat meat though. If they feel like they're living lives more authentic to their values, more power to them. And I myself am trying to eat less meat (it IS harmful lol), but like I'm also still aware that this is happening under capitalism, that my grocery preferences are a big whoop of nothing, and I'm not going to refuse a nice chicken soup from my grandma any time soon.

      edit:love 2 not be notified of a reply

      • HeckHound [he/him]
        ·
        4 years ago

        But also I came up with a fucking wall of text and the only way I can get you to engage and hopefully retort with your own arguments is if you read it in good faith and I’m all for that shit.

        I am discussing in good faith, but this particular discussion is shitty because you don't seem to be engaging with any ideas that are relevant to the ethics of animal exploitation. You don't seem to have any real knowledge of the ethical critiques vegans make and instead just assume you have enough knowledge to argue authoritatively on the subject and it's aggravating to say the least. The entire point that I've been discussing is about having a consistent ethical justification for animal exploitation, and you seem to be dead set on talking about literally anything else.

        I really dislike the argument that meat is a “luxury product” nor any argument that asks the reader to subscribe to some form of stoichal deprivation.

        Ok, you're just starting off by assuming that vegans are trying to make people into ascetics and deprive them of enjoying luxuries, for some reason. It's things like this that make having a good faith discussion incredibly difficult, because I have to spend my time correcting your assumptions about veganism instead of just discussing it directly. To put it simply, meat isn't a luxury because people enjoy eating it, it's a luxury because it is both unnecessary and expensive to produce. Luxuries aren't inherently bad, but killing a sentient being purely for luxury consumption is surely wrong.

        But more crucially, I think people could all be painfully aware of where meat comes from, and they would still eat meat.

        Sure, but this has nothing to do with whether it's morally acceptable to kill animals for pleasure. Most people are ok with consuming products they know are made by slave labor, exploitation, and imperialism, but that doesn't mean that any of those things are somehow moral or acceptable. Should we tolerate slavery because most people are ok with purchasing the products the slaves create?

        Look at it like this, people know meat directly causes cancer and people still eat meat.

        The vast majority of people who eat meat do not consider it to be a significant cause of cancer. Seriously, try telling people to stop eating meat because it is a carcinogen and see how many people come out of nowhere to tell you that can't be true because eating meat is natural and can't be harmful because evolution. And this is also not relevant to whether slaughtering animals for pleasure is ethical.

        Look at it like this, people know meat directly causes cancer and people still eat meat. Like they could die painful deaths because of their meat eating habits and they still fucking do it, in the face of this, why would a moralizing argument about cows nobody has ever met work? Like it’s their own well-being they’re directly threatening. Practically self-harm and they still eat meat.

        Yeah, we can't ever talk about ethics because some people will just be unethical anyways. Why say murder is wrong when people will still murder others? Or why say slavery is immoral because there are always people who will purchase products made from slave labor? Maybe we should just stop moralizing about murder and slavery and accept that people will just do what benefits them even if it causes mass suffering and death.

        And this is also not relevant to whether slaughtering animals for pleasure is ethical.

        So a more interesting question is why people eat meat despite all of it, despite it coming from dead animals and despite it being directly and provably harmful to oneself. And I think that it’s the way meat is presented as an inert product, with all its background and origin erased. And the immediate reaction is that we need to make everyone painfully aware of what meat is made of and by God, PETA has tried, because they understand this very well and it doesn’t work. And it never will because the consumption impulse doesn’t even happen entirely at the conscious level, because performance displays about dead people labeled as meat is fighting against the sea of meat products represented with logos of happy cows in sterile refrigerators.

        So we can't say killing animals for pleasure is bad because people are just helplessly manipulated by all-powerful marketing campaigns? Why should we even bother being leftists if capitalist marketing can just always mid control people into being mindless consumers?

        And this is also not relevant to whether slaughtering animals for pleasure is ethical.

        And I like to think that lefties, of all people, should be immediately aware of commodity fetishism within the context of the meat industry because it could be easily reversed. Capitalism can commodify your own guilt and put a price tag on it. Capitalism can transform your guilt into a premium and sell it back to you as guilt-free meat. Capitalism can simply resort to selling meat alternatives as a premium alternative to meat, because that’s where the profit motive is, and never aim to replace meat at all, which is what I presume the end game of any vegetarian.

        Vegetarians are vegans are completely different. It's like saying liberals and communists are the same thing. This basic lack of knowledge of the subject is why having a discussion with you is so frustrating and difficult.

        And yet again, this still has no bearing on whether slaughtering animals for pleasure is ethical.

        And I mean, I do see an alternative, maybe we should really run with how whitewashed meat is as a commodity, a meat that is only as valuable as it’s own texture and flavor is, that is, the inmediate sensorial experience it provides, and just replace it with a “non-meat” alternative at the same price point. And it’d be a win-win, it’s cheaper, it’s healthier, environmentally friendlier and nobody would be none-the-wiser because nobody really eats meat because they like to see animals suffer, actually. Nobody would really think that much about it, if there was an alternative with no animal sacrifice involved that is experientially the same at the same price. Everybody would take it.

        Things like the Impossible Burger and Beyond Beef exist and have existed for a while now and somehow meat eaters still hate them. It turns out the vast majority of meat eaters don't give a shit about animal suffering, unless it's a cute animal they happen to like.

        Really, this is just infuriating at this point. You blatantly have no idea about anything related to veganism and animal exploitation and that doesn't stop you from just claiming to know all the answers.

        That’s because people who purchase mink coats are really really concerned with them being made of mink. They simply cannot take any alternative because the entire value of a mink coat comes from the fact that it comes from a dead mink. Unlike meat, synthetic fibers that are made to resemble mink fur in just about every way already exist, and the sole reason why rich people still spend significantly more in authentic mink fur is because they really want to know it comes from a dead animal. The origin of a mink coat is not made invisible, it’s ingrained into the commodity itself. It is flaunted for everyone to see. Ersatz mink simply would not do, it needs a written guarantee that several minks died while doing it and possibly even an appellation of origin.

        None of this is unique to mink, people do the exact same shit with leather vs synthetic leather, turkey vs tofurkey, beef vs beyond beef, and on and on. Please learn more about the subject before trying to argue it, I'm begging you.

        I don’t want to be mean to anyone who chooses to not eat meat though. If they feel like they’re living lives more authentic to their values, more power to them. And I myself am trying to eat less meat (it IS harmful lol), but like I’m also still aware that this is happening under capitalism, that my grocery preferences are a big whoop of nothing, and I’m not going to refuse a nice chicken soup from my grandma any time soon.

        Yeah, I'm sure the animals that were tortured and slaughtered really appreciate how chill you are with all of it. I'm sure the chickens feel their lifelong imprisonment and early death is worth it so long as you don't make Grandma feel awkward. I mean, if my Grandma offers me some nice dog soup, I can't refuse that and hurt her feelings, can I?