I'm gonna repost what I wrote up after listening to that Taibbi episode because this anti-Amber meme is slander and caricature:
Attacks on Taibbi and Amber rely on out-of-context quotes and an uncharitable willingness to ascribe the worst motives to their arguments that under scrutiny appear entirely valid.
E.g. Amber said there're "non-White cops" and Taibbi said that working-class people become cops. (NOT a defense of cops.) They were saying that condemning all cops as White supremacists is a bad argument, one that does poorly with racial minorities and the poor. Because the experience of those groups with police is contradictory, not black-and-white, no pun intended. While many experiences with police are extremely negative, those groups are also disproportionately affected by violent crime and want police attention on violent crime - not simply no police. And they're also the demographics from which cops are hired - becoming a cop is a way to earn a living for many poor families. You won't win hearts by shitting on people's relatives.
Yes, the police is an anti-proletarian institution at its roots, and American police is corrupt and bloody with infuriating impunity (which Taibbi, Will, and Amber repeatedly acknowledge)... BUT the movement for racial equality and against police brutality will not attract mainstream support (and thus political success) if it leads with "All Cops Are the KKK"-type rhetoric.
TL;DR Amber didn't specifically oppose "defund the police" or defended the police in any way. She just highlighted the backlash of calling police White supremacists from certain demographics. Will agreed with these statements too, no need to single out Amber.
I'll also add, as good as the numbers in the OP look, they are urban, which always skews left, AND against a particularly hated PD. Don't over- or underestimate the support for BLM/DTP.
Well said. Taibbi is well versed on the systemic issues with policing. But I also don't think it's wrong to argue policing is racist, but the 'why' gets left out. Policing is about keeping the wealthy 'safe', and that means coming down like a ton of bricks on the poor, which just so happens to be minorities a lot of the time. The police have a systemic racism problem that is due to its adherence to class-based punishment. A fine is only punishment for those that can't pay it.
She literally did talk about "defund the police" though. Not just abolishing the police or the white supremacist thing. And yeah it is urban, so? That's where the issue is, that's where it even matters as a slogan. 70% is a HUGE number. Usually you're lucky if you have 20something% for what you want, and a majority not being completely opposed.
She literally did talk about “defund the police” though
Maybe I missed it? If you can quote her, please do so. I was listening for offensive quotes because it was shared with me as "can you believe what they said, omg, chapo is canceled" and the bit about White-supremacy/working-class/abolition (thanks for the reminder on that one) were the only ones that seemed remotely close to the accusation.
And yeah it is urban, so?
Urban AND an epicenter of BLM. I'm just saying don't celebrate prematurely because it might not be representative. If DTP works in Minneapolis and can force through change anywhere at all (like the bunch of places that did cut police budgets this year) - awesome. But historically the leftism/liberalism of cities hasn't done jack for reforming the police.
The problem I see is that skepticism about some radical slogans is taken to be tantamount to liberalism. It's a judgment call about a tactic, not a fundamental principle - nobody knows what will work. The attacks on clearly committed and intelligent leftists who speak their minds are wrong. Disagree with them if you interpret the facts differently, don't write them off forever over a difference of judgment.
And then there's the further problem where certain establishment Dems can embrace radical slogans because they have zero chance of being enacted in many places. So it's a way for them to play-pretend at radicalism while opposing actually feasible reform as being insufficiently woke/intersectional. The whole, "Oh, you want M4A, but haven't called for reparations? You White privileged piece of shit brocialist!"
The problem I see is that skepticism about some radical slogans is taken to be tantamount to liberalism
I agree with that part. And I even agree that "abolish the police" is kind of a dumb thing to get behind. It is just that she did actually talk about how defunding the police is unpopular and it's not a good solution etc. I can't find it right now because I am on mobile but in the recent struggle sesh thread someone posted a link to a reddit thread with all the quotes etc. It was something about how people in affected communities with a lot of crime want more police, not less, etc.
Urban AND an epicenter of BLM. I’m just saying don’t celebrate prematurely because it might not be representative
Even if it isn't, and in other cities it is just half that, this is still great.
Yeah I can actually somewhat understand partly where this is coming from, because I have faced it a lot. Some people think that if you don't embrace their slogans or actions it just means you are not radical enough and it gets kinda stupid, because losing support and getting domed because you don't pay attention to what is going on in society isn't radical, it's just silly. Like, if I was CIA that's exactly what I'd do, it's probably a lot more effective than whatever they are currently doing. Ultraleftism is a big issue with the left in the US as far as I can see. But on the other hand I think it is really dumb to talk about BLM and the demands to defund the police like it's some sort of marginal thing, when it clearly isn't and it's one of the best things the left in the US has done in recent years. Stripping down the police is extremely important for any leftist project.
I'm gonna repost what I wrote up after listening to that Taibbi episode because this anti-Amber meme is slander and caricature:
TL;DR Amber didn't specifically oppose "defund the police" or defended the police in any way. She just highlighted the backlash of calling police White supremacists from certain demographics. Will agreed with these statements too, no need to single out Amber.
I'll also add, as good as the numbers in the OP look, they are urban, which always skews left, AND against a particularly hated PD. Don't over- or underestimate the support for BLM/DTP.
Well said. Taibbi is well versed on the systemic issues with policing. But I also don't think it's wrong to argue policing is racist, but the 'why' gets left out. Policing is about keeping the wealthy 'safe', and that means coming down like a ton of bricks on the poor, which just so happens to be minorities a lot of the time. The police have a systemic racism problem that is due to its adherence to class-based punishment. A fine is only punishment for those that can't pay it.
We're never going to get anywhere if we treat fellow leftists like this. They're not some chud, and you shouldn't interact with them as if they were.
Amber.
She literally did talk about "defund the police" though. Not just abolishing the police or the white supremacist thing. And yeah it is urban, so? That's where the issue is, that's where it even matters as a slogan. 70% is a HUGE number. Usually you're lucky if you have 20something% for what you want, and a majority not being completely opposed.
Maybe I missed it? If you can quote her, please do so. I was listening for offensive quotes because it was shared with me as "can you believe what they said, omg, chapo is canceled" and the bit about White-supremacy/working-class/abolition (thanks for the reminder on that one) were the only ones that seemed remotely close to the accusation.
Urban AND an epicenter of BLM. I'm just saying don't celebrate prematurely because it might not be representative. If DTP works in Minneapolis and can force through change anywhere at all (like the bunch of places that did cut police budgets this year) - awesome. But historically the leftism/liberalism of cities hasn't done jack for reforming the police.
The problem I see is that skepticism about some radical slogans is taken to be tantamount to liberalism. It's a judgment call about a tactic, not a fundamental principle - nobody knows what will work. The attacks on clearly committed and intelligent leftists who speak their minds are wrong. Disagree with them if you interpret the facts differently, don't write them off forever over a difference of judgment.
And then there's the further problem where certain establishment Dems can embrace radical slogans because they have zero chance of being enacted in many places. So it's a way for them to play-pretend at radicalism while opposing actually feasible reform as being insufficiently woke/intersectional. The whole, "Oh, you want M4A, but haven't called for reparations? You White privileged piece of shit brocialist!"
I agree with that part. And I even agree that "abolish the police" is kind of a dumb thing to get behind. It is just that she did actually talk about how defunding the police is unpopular and it's not a good solution etc. I can't find it right now because I am on mobile but in the recent struggle sesh thread someone posted a link to a reddit thread with all the quotes etc. It was something about how people in affected communities with a lot of crime want more police, not less, etc.
Even if it isn't, and in other cities it is just half that, this is still great.
Kk we're on the same page, I'm just willing to give them a greater benefit of the doubt.
Yeah I can actually somewhat understand partly where this is coming from, because I have faced it a lot. Some people think that if you don't embrace their slogans or actions it just means you are not radical enough and it gets kinda stupid, because losing support and getting domed because you don't pay attention to what is going on in society isn't radical, it's just silly. Like, if I was CIA that's exactly what I'd do, it's probably a lot more effective than whatever they are currently doing. Ultraleftism is a big issue with the left in the US as far as I can see. But on the other hand I think it is really dumb to talk about BLM and the demands to defund the police like it's some sort of marginal thing, when it clearly isn't and it's one of the best things the left in the US has done in recent years. Stripping down the police is extremely important for any leftist project.