The strategy is clearly to soften people's hardcore opposition to even the mere mention of socialism. This is the subtext of the exchange:
Q: By socialism, do you mean scary, evil stuff that has been the target of an unparalleled anticommunist propaganda machine for decades? Please say yes; doing so is one of the few things that could end your political career.
A: Haha fuck off with the bait, I'm talking about stuff people generally view positively, especially when it comes to socialized healthcare, because, you know, healthcare is currently the biggest entrypoint into leftism.
I don't know what power level she's hiding, but it doesn't really matter. The intent is good, and the answer does more to advance us towards socialism than a discussion of how to classify the Soviet or Cuban government.
I never really understand this strategy because we're going to get called socialists anyway so long as we're not ardent, steel eyed Republican voters with American flag tattoos on our foreheads. The strategy has confusing results too because now libs I know are referring to Kamala Harris, with praise, as a socialist.
If that's the case, what would be more important is advancing and focusing on class politics regardless of the terms involved. The subtext I get out of what she said is a "no, don't worry. We're not scary. I'm a good liberal." It's being backed into a corner. She could have easily said that what she regards as socialism is what promotes the interests of the working class above other concerns or what other countries are doing or have done.
I live in the south. There's a topsy-turvey kind of contrarian streak I'm seeing (anecdotally) where southern libs are taking the chud claims of Biden being a Marxist at face value and concluding that if Biden is a socialist, therefore they are also socialists.
The idea is that people will be more willing to seriously consider socialism if they don't turn their brains off as soon as the word is mentioned.
She could have easily said that what she regards as socialism is what promotes the interests of the working class above other concerns or what other countries are doing or have done.
This would have been a good answer, too, but the answer she gave (1) responds to the part of the question about which countries she wants to emulate, and (2) is in a broader context of pointing to stuff like Britain's NHS as a superior healthcare model.
I know that's the goal of the idea. I'm skeptical about its efficacy or that it will lead to anything. I'm only seeing socialist becoming another term for liberal.
If "socialist" becomes as mainstream and inoffensive as "liberal," that makes it far easier to talk to people about socialism. You can talk about socialism as socialism, you can point them to openly-socialist resources, it's easier to get them to reconsider what they know about actually socialist countries.
Maybe I've simply had poor experiences with this, but it's only become more difficult talking with them. Now they won't accept that they might have a wrong idea of what socialism means or what we should be advancing. I already have associates who treat socialism (the term) as inoffensive, but they still basically promote mainstream liberal centrism. They refer to American cops as socialist. They call Biden a socialist and act all proud.
The only thing that's changed is they'll refer to what they previously called socialist (Cuba, USSR, Marxism, class politics, etc) as "authoritarian" or "divisive" or whatever word they come up with on the spot. All they've done is take the spooky s-word and replace it with others.
Unless your associates are completely post-fact -- and that's increasingly common, although those people aren't persuadable anyway -- they're going to get tied to the real definition of socialism at some point. It's like debating people about what is or isn't capitalism (another term that's popularly nebulous). At some point, if the person is at least someone connected to reality, you can go to authoritative sources on the matter to establish what it really means. I won't deny that this is a whole process, but at least you're talking about socialism at that point, and they're not just shutting down the conversation out of hand.
I just think by avoiding america’s enemies, it avoids the question of how illegitimate the government is.
Consider how radical "the U.S. government is illegitimate" is. That's not an idea that's going to click with very many people who watch CNN; they're going to reject it as it's too far outside their current beliefs. You can't throw people in the deep end right away, you have to bring them along a little bit and at least get them comfortable treading in leftist waters. It's a pipeline to leftism, not an instant conversion.
Then there's the idea that most people don't care about foreign policy much anyways, and so you're not going to score points with anyone for having great foreign policy takes most of the time. There's no much to gain, but you can easily get roasted -- look at how Bernie got a crucial week's worth of bad coverage over extremely innocuous comments about Cuba's healthcare and education.
I have also never really had much push back on claiming the government is illegitimate.
Are you talking to the average CNN viewer, though? And might people be willing to entertain more radical ideas in person, from a regular guy, than they would from an elected official?
Belief in the illegitimacy of the government makes more sense in a heavily red area. I think at that point it comes down to who's just culturally conservative (and the hostility to government that comes with that) and who's an ideologically-committed right-winger. The latter isn't reachable, but the former might be.
Its true that it softens peoples opinion of the word Socialism, but it does so by changing its meaning.
So what does that leave us with? More people becoming open to learning about Marxism, or a surplus of liberals and social chauvinists calling themselves Socialists?
I don't think it changes its meaning so much as it erases preconceived opposition rooted in decades of anticommunist propaganda. That makes it easier to educate people on what socialism actually is, because starting from a roughly blank slate is better than starting with dug-in opposition.
Say you want to convince Jimmy that basketball is fun and good. He knows nothing about basketball, but his entire life he's been subjected to a media environment telling him basketball is dangerous, unfun, and no one gets laid if they play it. You try to talk to him about what basketball actually is, but his response is "nah, fuck basketball, I don't even want to hear it."
But a few years pass and the media environment changes to where people call damn near anything basketball. Jimmy, not actually knowing what basketball is, now hears about it all the time -- often positively, if inaccurately -- and his hardline opposition to even the concept of basketball changes to "hell, they'll call anything basketball these days." Now if you try to talk to him, you aren't going to get that immediate, visceral opposition, and he might listen a bit if he likes you and thinks you might have some clarifying information.
Months back a small, unscientific poll here suggested that somewhere around 75% of us used to be libs (I know it's 100%, and I know it's not "used to," of course). IIRC the next biggest group was libertarians, at about 10%.
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The strategy is clearly to soften people's hardcore opposition to even the mere mention of socialism. This is the subtext of the exchange:
I don't know what power level she's hiding, but it doesn't really matter. The intent is good, and the answer does more to advance us towards socialism than a discussion of how to classify the Soviet or Cuban government.
I never really understand this strategy because we're going to get called socialists anyway so long as we're not ardent, steel eyed Republican voters with American flag tattoos on our foreheads. The strategy has confusing results too because now libs I know are referring to Kamala Harris, with praise, as a socialist.
If that's the case, what would be more important is advancing and focusing on class politics regardless of the terms involved. The subtext I get out of what she said is a "no, don't worry. We're not scary. I'm a good liberal." It's being backed into a corner. She could have easily said that what she regards as socialism is what promotes the interests of the working class above other concerns or what other countries are doing or have done.
What fucking libs do you know?
I live in the south. There's a topsy-turvey kind of contrarian streak I'm seeing (anecdotally) where southern libs are taking the chud claims of Biden being a Marxist at face value and concluding that if Biden is a socialist, therefore they are also socialists.
get them into an org lol
The idea is that people will be more willing to seriously consider socialism if they don't turn their brains off as soon as the word is mentioned.
This would have been a good answer, too, but the answer she gave (1) responds to the part of the question about which countries she wants to emulate, and (2) is in a broader context of pointing to stuff like Britain's NHS as a superior healthcare model.
I know that's the goal of the idea. I'm skeptical about its efficacy or that it will lead to anything. I'm only seeing socialist becoming another term for liberal.
If "socialist" becomes as mainstream and inoffensive as "liberal," that makes it far easier to talk to people about socialism. You can talk about socialism as socialism, you can point them to openly-socialist resources, it's easier to get them to reconsider what they know about actually socialist countries.
Maybe I've simply had poor experiences with this, but it's only become more difficult talking with them. Now they won't accept that they might have a wrong idea of what socialism means or what we should be advancing. I already have associates who treat socialism (the term) as inoffensive, but they still basically promote mainstream liberal centrism. They refer to American cops as socialist. They call Biden a socialist and act all proud.
The only thing that's changed is they'll refer to what they previously called socialist (Cuba, USSR, Marxism, class politics, etc) as "authoritarian" or "divisive" or whatever word they come up with on the spot. All they've done is take the spooky s-word and replace it with others.
Unless your associates are completely post-fact -- and that's increasingly common, although those people aren't persuadable anyway -- they're going to get tied to the real definition of socialism at some point. It's like debating people about what is or isn't capitalism (another term that's popularly nebulous). At some point, if the person is at least someone connected to reality, you can go to authoritative sources on the matter to establish what it really means. I won't deny that this is a whole process, but at least you're talking about socialism at that point, and they're not just shutting down the conversation out of hand.
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Consider how radical "the U.S. government is illegitimate" is. That's not an idea that's going to click with very many people who watch CNN; they're going to reject it as it's too far outside their current beliefs. You can't throw people in the deep end right away, you have to bring them along a little bit and at least get them comfortable treading in leftist waters. It's a pipeline to leftism, not an instant conversion.
Then there's the idea that most people don't care about foreign policy much anyways, and so you're not going to score points with anyone for having great foreign policy takes most of the time. There's no much to gain, but you can easily get roasted -- look at how Bernie got a crucial week's worth of bad coverage over extremely innocuous comments about Cuba's healthcare and education.
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Are you talking to the average CNN viewer, though? And might people be willing to entertain more radical ideas in person, from a regular guy, than they would from an elected official?
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Belief in the illegitimacy of the government makes more sense in a heavily red area. I think at that point it comes down to who's just culturally conservative (and the hostility to government that comes with that) and who's an ideologically-committed right-winger. The latter isn't reachable, but the former might be.
Its true that it softens peoples opinion of the word Socialism, but it does so by changing its meaning.
So what does that leave us with? More people becoming open to learning about Marxism, or a surplus of liberals and social chauvinists calling themselves Socialists?
I don't think it changes its meaning so much as it erases preconceived opposition rooted in decades of anticommunist propaganda. That makes it easier to educate people on what socialism actually is, because starting from a roughly blank slate is better than starting with dug-in opposition.
Say you want to convince Jimmy that basketball is fun and good. He knows nothing about basketball, but his entire life he's been subjected to a media environment telling him basketball is dangerous, unfun, and no one gets laid if they play it. You try to talk to him about what basketball actually is, but his response is "nah, fuck basketball, I don't even want to hear it."
But a few years pass and the media environment changes to where people call damn near anything basketball. Jimmy, not actually knowing what basketball is, now hears about it all the time -- often positively, if inaccurately -- and his hardline opposition to even the concept of basketball changes to "hell, they'll call anything basketball these days." Now if you try to talk to him, you aren't going to get that immediate, visceral opposition, and he might listen a bit if he likes you and thinks you might have some clarifying information.
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Yeah I've been thinking about it and I 100% agree. I'm sure most of us all started the same way. It just takes patience and education.
Months back a small, unscientific poll here suggested that somewhere around 75% of us used to be libs (I know it's 100%, and I know it's not "used to," of course). IIRC the next biggest group was libertarians, at about 10%.
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