Those countries are substantially farther left than the U.S., and have substantially more labor power, which may be a path further left. Universal healthcare is not a one-way ticket to socialism, but countries that have it are already farther left than the U.S., and are much better situated to take the next big step.
don’t believe that social democracy is a stepping stone to actual socialism because thats been debunked by history
Considering that arguably no one has yet achieved socialism (especially not in the imperial core), and that history can't be read like a book of prophecies, nothing's been debunked. We don't have any idea what the path to American socialism will look like, but I'm betting something that greatly enhances worker power would be helpful.
they don’t have the leftist presence one would expect if social democracy increased avenues for leftist political participation
But they are substantially further left than us. We can't say that Bernie would basically be a conservative in most countries and then turn around and say those countries are basically as capitalist as we are.
without other pressures, you’re just solidifying the labor aristocracy
There definitely need to be other pressures, and a leftist movement that grows by delivering material improvements can provide those pressures. Even with the baby leftists we have now, they're talking about a lot more than just healthcare and welfare.
they just have a measure of economic safety for their citizens
That's an enormous "just." "Just" giving people healthcare instead of letting them go bankrupt when they have appendicitis is a huge material improvement, and by itself makes those countries significantly further left than we are. Then look at labor protections, unionization, criminal justice, how far left you can be and have any shot at political power, etc. They're not leftist, but they're substantially further left than we are.
Baby leftists in the US are barely calling for m4a and welfare
They commonly talk about the Green New Deal, free college, ending mass incarceration, making it easier to unionize, etc., and Bernie even talked about getting worker representation on corporate boards.
a less heavy boot on your back doesn’t mean anything if there isn’t an org taking advantage of it. If we had one concrete movement/party which was pushing for demands like m4a and worker protections and was able to force concessions from the government
This is exactly the DSA's strategy, and they're not far from realizing at least part of it.
I'm similarly skeptical of its enforcement mechanisms, but I would describe it as cautious optimism and I would say they deserve the benefit of the doubt. There was that Chicago City Council vote a month or two ago, for instance, where they immediately started disciplinary procedures when a representative broke ranks on a vote.
I’m never going to say we ought to neglect one area of political engagement entirely, so pretty much anyone trying has a baseline benefit of the doubt.
:10000-com:
In addition, members must attend CPC meetings
God I wish this was the CPC I'm thinking of. But that's a nice start.
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Those countries are substantially farther left than the U.S., and have substantially more labor power, which may be a path further left. Universal healthcare is not a one-way ticket to socialism, but countries that have it are already farther left than the U.S., and are much better situated to take the next big step.
Considering that arguably no one has yet achieved socialism (especially not in the imperial core), and that history can't be read like a book of prophecies, nothing's been debunked. We don't have any idea what the path to American socialism will look like, but I'm betting something that greatly enhances worker power would be helpful.
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But they are substantially further left than us. We can't say that Bernie would basically be a conservative in most countries and then turn around and say those countries are basically as capitalist as we are.
There definitely need to be other pressures, and a leftist movement that grows by delivering material improvements can provide those pressures. Even with the baby leftists we have now, they're talking about a lot more than just healthcare and welfare.
deleted by creator
That's an enormous "just." "Just" giving people healthcare instead of letting them go bankrupt when they have appendicitis is a huge material improvement, and by itself makes those countries significantly further left than we are. Then look at labor protections, unionization, criminal justice, how far left you can be and have any shot at political power, etc. They're not leftist, but they're substantially further left than we are.
They commonly talk about the Green New Deal, free college, ending mass incarceration, making it easier to unionize, etc., and Bernie even talked about getting worker representation on corporate boards.
This is exactly the DSA's strategy, and they're not far from realizing at least part of it.
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I'm similarly skeptical of its enforcement mechanisms, but I would describe it as cautious optimism and I would say they deserve the benefit of the doubt. There was that Chicago City Council vote a month or two ago, for instance, where they immediately started disciplinary procedures when a representative broke ranks on a vote.
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:10000-com:
God I wish this was the CPC I'm thinking of. But that's a nice start.