Watch the full conversation here: https://youtube.com/live/OVl9FGe8fno?feature=shareChris, Marcelina, and Max join Katie to discuss the historic UAW strike. ...
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Republicans are obviously more cruel than Democrats and I'll even throw in that they're generally dumber as well. But I do think you're underselling just how dog shit and cruel Democrats are. We have somewhere between 50-90k people dying each year due to lacking healthcare in this country and Democrats have absolutely no desire to stop it. Nada, zilch, none, 200-360k people will have died in the US under Biden presidency that didn't have to.
Republicans are dumb antivaxers who don't understand science, but Democrats claim to, which makes their COVID response a cruel and disgusting genocide on those with disabilities.
whether I'll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity -- the other doesn't. But I guess you don't care about any of that.
I can't speak for the person you responded to, but I would assume that they care about trans rights and existence.
I do think two things are worth noting:
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference we could have every Hexbear user vote, even the non-American ones, and it would not move the needle.
The attack on trans people is happening while Democrats are in power and rather than confronting it in any meaningful way they've equivocated about the complexity of childs sports.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that's it. Nothing will be done about it.
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference... (which seems to me to imply (in this case) don't bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I see this attitude a lot in the auth-left. Is this a general thing or only counts when talking about voting?
What about driving SUVs? I'm just one person, doesn't matter if I drive an SUV right? It's only one automobile. And promoting the concept that people shouldn't drive SUVs would be silly right?
What about consuming animal products? It wouldn't matter if people become vegan or not right?, the cow is already dead, the carbon emissions already emitted, and one person eating a hamburger won't make any difference, no sense in eating less meat or trying to promote eating less meat, it'd be no more useful than voting/promoting voting. The only solution would be to outlaw being non-vegan, and anyone who wants a burger deserves the wall right?
There is no fucking "auth-left" get outta here with that liberal bs. Also real "you want to decolonize? wow so you want to shoot all white people" energy there
What should I use instead? And what other ways should I differentiate myself, an anarcho-communist, from other leftists who want to use state power to get their way? Is that not authoritarian?
There may be dumb people making dumb memes about it, but I haven't seen anything that makes more sense. If you can point me to something better I'd appreciate it.
the political compass was invented solely to make "right libertarianism" look like a real ideology. It was pushed by billionaire money into schools to rot peoples brains. Its not real and provides no insight, it only furthers political illiteracy in the US. Its not a random statement, its a bullshit concept
Your buying into the central assumption that their is such a thing as authoritarianism. All governments are authoritarian its a meaningless distiction in political economy.
Right libertarianism is a bullshit ideology, because its just liberalism.
The system that works better is just reality. Understanding that political economy is a single entity not separate axis
Libertarianism is about maximizing autonomy and reducing or eliminating state power. The reasons why one might want those things, and the methods used to attain and maintain them make a distinction between left and right libertarianism.
This is exactly my problem with the political compass and why i said it was bullshit to start with. You are defining libertarianism as an ideology that can only be described by the political compass. Methods and distictions that are only meaningful if you sunder the concept of political economy. That's why i said its only purpose is to make "right libertarianism" seem like a real ideology when its just liberalism
This wasn't written by Marx but by Engels, how closely did you actually read this?
Basically, all bourgeois states are constantly "authoritarian" and any revolution against them must also be "authoritarian" (ie, it must use organized applications of force targeted at specific enemies)
There was a thread maybe a month back where we all took the test and everyone is "left libertarian," because the entire design of this thing is ridiculous.
Ok, please tell me the problems you have with the political compass disregarding the website and questions. If it's so flawed, you should easily be able to point them out right?
I already have told you. Political economy is one thing not two separate axis. Promoting the opposite is promoting political illiteracy, which is the "tools" whole point. Its not educating its obfuscating.
I'd say your obfuscating by conflating politics and economics. Sure they are closely related and thus the X,Y graph, but they are not the same. Neither of us is the arbiter of truth so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
I'd say your obfuscating by conflating politics and economics
You could say that, but only because you've fundamentally bought in to a right wing framing through belief a right wing propaganda tool.
Neither of us is the arbiter of truth
Ok? Thats a complete thought terminating cliche. No one has to be the sole arbiter of truth to say things that are true about our material reality.
I didn't invent the concept of political economy. If you think its obfuscation, take it up with the political theorists of the 17th and 18th centuries and the socialist theorists of the 19th who drew on their work.
I'm not inventing things and arbiting truth, im talking about actual theory and not propaganda models, that have clearly worked in your case.
Sure they are closely related and thus the X,Y graph, but they are not the same
This is the problem with the political compass, and its entire reason for existing. Its to decouple politics from economics and create a belief that some things are similar or related when they are not - a flattening of political understanding to render people illiterate.
The use of "authoritarianism" as an axis - a word that is not meaningfully definable - is only used to perpetuate the Cold War mythologies of communists being the same as nazis. Just like double genocide theory, this view of politics is ultimately nazi apologia.
On the reverse, it serves to legitimize "right libertarianism" by flattening peoples understanding to make it look like it has something in common with actual ideological traditions like anarchism. As a professed anarchist, you should abhor this flattening and equivocation and the model that promotes it. I'm not personally an anarchist, but i find it disgusting how they've sought legitimacy by trying to tie themselves to actual intellectual and political tendencies.
Fair argument, I disagree. Tools are for measuring things, disagreeing with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be learned about, measured, and viewed in context. If you have a better tool that contains virtually all positions without simply leaving out those you disagree with please show me.
Your rich powerful guy is evil, mine is righteous and we should kill you all if you don't fall in line behind my guy" is what your ideology boils down to.
When you totally understand Marxism-Leninism.
This is exactly what the political compass does to your brain
"Your rich powerful guy is evil, mine is righteous and we should kill you all if you don't fall in line behind my guy" is what your ideology boils down to.
We aren't the ones who support every NATO invasion and bombing campaign
How do you type this out without spotting the obvious absurdity, just what do you think the point of politics is?
There can be no conflation because politics and economics are inseparable, like how hardware and software are inseparable components of computerization
Every civilization has a mode of production that allows said civilization to reproduce itself, and that reproduction is implemented as a matter of political will shaped thru the realities of whatever specific mode defines the civilization, it's not a "close relationship" that may or may not interact depending on some vacuum context, instead politics and economics are literal embodiments of each other that always interact in the physical world humans inhabit
I'm literally saying they're interconnected systems, youre the one claiming economics and politics are seperable. Marxism is literally political economy, we don't think they can be meaningfully separated.
The idea of voting is for collective action (maybe). If 51 % vote for something, the we all are supposed to do the thing.
It would be like, "If 51% of people went vegan, then 100% of the population would be required to be vegan. But since vegans are not 51% of the people, no concessions should be made towards their beliefs."
Honestly, the Republicans and conserva-Dems are doing that right now with an transphobic arguments along the line of, "Hey, trans people are such small portion of the population, wouldn't it be easier for them all to just, you know, not be trans?"
I agree with everything but I think this is a weak line to use:
a single vote is not going to make a difference
it's true that leftists are too small in number to sway an election, but with that line you're just gonna get "what if everyone thought that way." You can see how the lib you were talking to latched onto that one line and ignored everything else.
more importantly, the whole purpose of denigrating voting is to get people to organize. As long as people organize, whether or not they also vote in national elections is of little consequence imo, as long as they have realistic expectations. If they think there's some marginal harm reduction, that's fine, as long as they don't pin all their hopes on some crisp, bloodless Democrat who'll let Citibank pick their cabinet like Obama did in 2008.
People need to understand that, even when the majority votes blue, their votes do not actually result in policy. We have to break the false sense of political agency that voting gives people. But the purpose is ultimately not to stop people from voting, but to make them start organizing.
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
[...]
In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule — at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
I really like your point about voting not resulting in policy, I'd completely forgotten about that study and will be using it. But I'd like to clarify something:
a single vote is not going to make a difference
it's true that leftists are too small in number to sway an election
It doesn't matter if you're liberal or conservative or a leftist any single vote doesn't matter because single votes do not typically determine elections. Like you can be a liberal in a conservative area you'll be out voted or a liberal in a liberal area will likely have their candidate win by a significant margin meaning their vote didn't really matter either.
again, you'll just get "What if everyone thought that way."
but I agree it's worth pointing out that a lot of ballots are basically thrown in the trash, if you don't live in a swing area in this gerrymandered hell country.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I'm an anarcho-communist, so I'm not saying the solutions to the world's problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I'll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
(which seems to me to imply (in this case) don't bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn't. My mentality on voting is that if it's easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more "realistic" to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I'll even join you, but the notion that you'll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t.
Amazing! I'd call this progress.
counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
Ok, at least that's a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution?
Nope. But I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I'm in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems -- and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them.
Yes, it is Republicans I'm not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they're unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won't do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier.
No disagreement here I'm not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There's a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they're "apolitical" and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they're functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
but as of now they’re functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
Hope -- hope that others will do the same and work together to make a better future. The pantry will be there next weekend.
This is some Obama era shit. Hope isn't feeding people.
What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular?
I am finishing my PhD and getting the fuck out of this state. Once I have the means I will absolutely run for school board to keep a lib or a hog out of the spot and promote a Marxist indoctrination of our nation's youth.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D.
Again, I'm not against voting for the lesser of two evils, but I am not going to spend my time advocating for an anti-choice, anti-trans, anti-gay hog. We have "progressives" who gain traction on a state wide basis and the Democratic party systematically kneecaps them every time because it is an old boys club.
Perfection is the enemy of progress.
I am not asking for perfection I am asking for the Democratic party to be a functional party, which it isn't despite having the governorship in my state.
Is that really how I'm using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I'm asking my comrades not be idiots that think we're really close enough to full on communist revolution that it's worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections.. If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
The power (such as to end capitalism, not to control others) comes from influencing people and making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at.
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections
The outcome of most states (in fact most counties, most precincts) is already known and condidered locked. If you live in most of the country and your vote is counter to that, what power does your vote have?
If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
There's a lot of assumptions here. US presidential elections are multi billion dollar businesses. Political campaigns are a way for people to mske money. Rich people do waste billions on them. They are as grifted as anyone else, when it comes to this hollow polical system.
making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at
Seems to be a lot of comrades around here, and we've attracted a lot more since federation began. We're a non-sectarian space, but it is true that we aren't trying to be welcoming to s because they aren't comrades at all and will not be unless they abandon their liberalism
On Hexbear? I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out. I'd imagine not many, people don't like their ideology poked with sticks. I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
By telling communists they need to VOOOOOOOOTE for Biden?
I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out.
No need to take it so seriously. I was mocking you and your concern trolling
Voting for a piece of legislation, cool. Which is why all the cool things that people want don't get put up for public votes, we might actually get good stuff.
Voting for a person, who then gets to whatever they want carte blanche style for their entire term, meh.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That's pure projection. You think you're doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of ing in a fake democracy
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I'd imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I'm currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that's why you're all worked up about on a communist site. You're projecting that onto us.
people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types)
I'll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about like we don't already know. Some of us do, some of us don't. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don't care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of evangelism your on about is nonsense.
Weird definition of liberal but I'll take it. My panties are not in a bunch because people call me a liberal, especially when it has to be redefined to apply.
I'm not defining or redefining anything. I'm saying VOTE evangelism is some lib nonsense, that's really the extent of what I'm saying.
voting is fine if you think there's a reason to engage in liberal democracy. Sometimes their are reasons to. There's never a reason to VOOOOTE evangelize on a left space
We've talked about that, this is not an actual thing that exists. It only exists on your political compass which is bullshit.
mislead thinking that people like Xi actually care about minorities, LGBT, etc.
We support AES states. We don't have parasocial relationships with the individuals in charge. I don't pretend to know what Xi "cares" about on a personal level. I support the CPC, and think Xi's leadership has been a positive force. I'm not misled in this.
People learn about atrocities and lies in U.S. history and that seems to make them think that enemies of the U.S. must be good, but that's a fallacy.
So which enemies of the US are bad and which are good?
We support AES here. We don't support them just because they are enemies of the US. They are enemies precisely because they are AES. Some US enemies that aren't AES like Iran or Russia we don't support, although we have critical support for them in their conflicts with US hegemony.
None of these positions are based on assumptions of "goodness."
I hope that somebody reading my comments will start to question their allegiance to rich powerful men like Xi and Putin
We don't have allegiance to Xi as a person. We have support of the CPC. We support the direction of things have gone in under his leadership, but as comminists we recognize he is only one man among many doing the work of building socialism. We have alliegence to everyone building socialism in thevreal world. Your not going to find support for Great Man Theory here, as much as you imagine it.
No one here has alligence to Putin. We have some critical support for the Russian Federations in its conflict with the US as i already explained. That's not allegiance to Putin no matter what you want to imagine are assume.
Let's say Dems and Repubs are identical in most ways (colonialism, etc). It's a fact that fascists are more dangerous to vulnerable populations than garden variety conservatives (if you don't get this you must be either privileged or just don't care about the collateral damage caused attempting to get your way). Therefore it makes sense for a member of one or more of these vulnerable populations (which I am) to encourage using a provided mechanism (voting) that people fought for in an attempt at self-preservation as well as preservation of other vulnerable groups.
Everyone here knows that! The USians here all know how US elections work! We don't need anyone to tell us that.
Since we know how these elections work we also know that in presidential elections most of the populations votes don't matter. There are a handful of swing states, and even then its a handful of counties that determine presidential elections. The vast majority of Congress are safe districts. Senators are largely locked in a similar way that the electoral map breaks down. Its all designed to promote minority rule.
This is the reality of elections in the US. People here have different views on how to engage with this system, based on an understanding of the reality of it. And many of us are people directly targeted by fascists, and they aren't intetested in your vote evangelism either. There are times and arguements and circumstances where voting makes sense, but voooote evangelism is not that arguement, and presidential elections are usually not that circumstance.
No one here outright opposes voting in the right circumstances. That's why I'm saying that your whole exercise here is pointless. We don't oppose voting, we oppose voooooooote bullshit.
Votes are earned.
Republicans are obviously more cruel than Democrats and I'll even throw in that they're generally dumber as well. But I do think you're underselling just how dog shit and cruel Democrats are. We have somewhere between 50-90k people dying each year due to lacking healthcare in this country and Democrats have absolutely no desire to stop it. Nada, zilch, none, 200-360k people will have died in the US under Biden presidency that didn't have to.
Republicans are dumb antivaxers who don't understand science, but Democrats claim to, which makes their COVID response a cruel and disgusting genocide on those with disabilities.
I can't speak for the person you responded to, but I would assume that they care about trans rights and existence.
I do think two things are worth noting:
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference we could have every Hexbear user vote, even the non-American ones, and it would not move the needle.
The attack on trans people is happening while Democrats are in power and rather than confronting it in any meaningful way they've equivocated about the complexity of childs sports.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that's it. Nothing will be done about it.
I see this attitude a lot in the auth-left. Is this a general thing or only counts when talking about voting?
What about driving SUVs? I'm just one person, doesn't matter if I drive an SUV right? It's only one automobile. And promoting the concept that people shouldn't drive SUVs would be silly right?
What about consuming animal products? It wouldn't matter if people become vegan or not right?, the cow is already dead, the carbon emissions already emitted, and one person eating a hamburger won't make any difference, no sense in eating less meat or trying to promote eating less meat, it'd be no more useful than voting/promoting voting. The only solution would be to outlaw being non-vegan, and anyone who wants a burger deserves the wall right?
There is no fucking "auth-left" get outta here with that liberal bs. Also real "you want to decolonize? wow so you want to shoot all white people" energy there
Polcomp is a stupid meme that it is below you to believe in even as a liberal
What should I use instead? And what other ways should I differentiate myself, an anarcho-communist, from other leftists who want to use state power to get their way? Is that not authoritarian?
There may be dumb people making dumb memes about it, but I haven't seen anything that makes more sense. If you can point me to something better I'd appreciate it.
You can just say Marxist
Ok
The political compass makes no sense
Chain link fences are useless. See I can spout random statements that sound like facts too.
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Your buying into the central assumption that their is such a thing as authoritarianism. All governments are authoritarian its a meaningless distiction in political economy.
Right libertarianism is a bullshit ideology, because its just liberalism.
The system that works better is just reality. Understanding that political economy is a single entity not separate axis
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This is exactly my problem with the political compass and why i said it was bullshit to start with. You are defining libertarianism as an ideology that can only be described by the political compass. Methods and distictions that are only meaningful if you sunder the concept of political economy. That's why i said its only purpose is to make "right libertarianism" seem like a real ideology when its just liberalism
"You're defining speed as something that can only be described by a speedometer" I can spew nonsense too.
You certainly can spew nonsense
He's saying that it's not a coherent political ideology so it exists only on the political compass
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
I've read this, I just think it's wrong. Marx isn't a god, he not everything he said is unquestionable truth.
Engels wrote On Authority, not Marx
This wasn't written by Marx but by Engels, how closely did you actually read this?
Basically, all bourgeois states are constantly "authoritarian" and any revolution against them must also be "authoritarian" (ie, it must use organized applications of force targeted at specific enemies)
Just to point out how bullshit it is.
There was a thread maybe a month back where we all took the test and everyone is "left libertarian," because the entire design of this thing is ridiculous.
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There is no baby here, only bathwater
Ok, please tell me the problems you have with the political compass disregarding the website and questions. If it's so flawed, you should easily be able to point them out right?
I already have told you. Political economy is one thing not two separate axis. Promoting the opposite is promoting political illiteracy, which is the "tools" whole point. Its not educating its obfuscating.
I'd say your obfuscating by conflating politics and economics. Sure they are closely related and thus the X,Y graph, but they are not the same. Neither of us is the arbiter of truth so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
You could say that, but only because you've fundamentally bought in to a right wing framing through belief a right wing propaganda tool.
Ok? Thats a complete thought terminating cliche. No one has to be the sole arbiter of truth to say things that are true about our material reality.
I didn't invent the concept of political economy. If you think its obfuscation, take it up with the political theorists of the 17th and 18th centuries and the socialist theorists of the 19th who drew on their work.
I'm not inventing things and arbiting truth, im talking about actual theory and not propaganda models, that have clearly worked in your case.
This is the problem with the political compass, and its entire reason for existing. Its to decouple politics from economics and create a belief that some things are similar or related when they are not - a flattening of political understanding to render people illiterate.
The use of "authoritarianism" as an axis - a word that is not meaningfully definable - is only used to perpetuate the Cold War mythologies of communists being the same as nazis. Just like double genocide theory, this view of politics is ultimately nazi apologia.
On the reverse, it serves to legitimize "right libertarianism" by flattening peoples understanding to make it look like it has something in common with actual ideological traditions like anarchism. As a professed anarchist, you should abhor this flattening and equivocation and the model that promotes it. I'm not personally an anarchist, but i find it disgusting how they've sought legitimacy by trying to tie themselves to actual intellectual and political tendencies.
Fair argument, I disagree. Tools are for measuring things, disagreeing with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be learned about, measured, and viewed in context. If you have a better tool that contains virtually all positions without simply leaving out those you disagree with please show me.
I don't use any tool. Politics is not a grid or a spectrum, and there is no point forcing one on it, unless you want to increase political illiteracy.
Reddit has completely broken your brain.
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'Red fash' isnt a thing you fucking baby, read a fucking book
When you totally understand Marxism-Leninism.
This is exactly what the political compass does to your brain
We aren't the ones who support every NATO invasion and bombing campaign
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
I just wanna say, youre my favorite lemmitor around these parts, keep up the amazing posts
They got
-ed. I'll miss their work.
How do you type this out without spotting the obvious absurdity, just what do you think the point of politics is?
There can be no conflation because politics and economics are inseparable, like how hardware and software are inseparable components of computerization
Every civilization has a mode of production that allows said civilization to reproduce itself, and that reproduction is implemented as a matter of political will shaped thru the realities of whatever specific mode defines the civilization, it's not a "close relationship" that may or may not interact depending on some vacuum context, instead politics and economics are literal embodiments of each other that always interact in the physical world humans inhabit
Power
Yes, but power to do what?
Explain how you can affeft social issues without affecting class dynamics. Explain how you can affect class dynamics without affecting social issues.
Explain why you think class dynamics --> social issues is a one-way street. Change can and does flow both ways.
I'm literally saying they're interconnected systems, youre the one claiming economics and politics are seperable. Marxism is literally political economy, we don't think they can be meaningfully separated.
Bad examples.
The idea of voting is for collective action (maybe). If 51 % vote for something, the we all are supposed to do the thing.
It would be like, "If 51% of people went vegan, then 100% of the population would be required to be vegan. But since vegans are not 51% of the people, no concessions should be made towards their beliefs."
Honestly, the Republicans and conserva-Dems are doing that right now with an transphobic arguments along the line of, "Hey, trans people are such small portion of the population, wouldn't it be easier for them all to just, you know, not be trans?"
I agree with everything but I think this is a weak line to use:
it's true that leftists are too small in number to sway an election, but with that line you're just gonna get "what if everyone thought that way." You can see how the lib you were talking to latched onto that one line and ignored everything else.
more importantly, the whole purpose of denigrating voting is to get people to organize. As long as people organize, whether or not they also vote in national elections is of little consequence imo, as long as they have realistic expectations. If they think there's some marginal harm reduction, that's fine, as long as they don't pin all their hopes on some crisp, bloodless Democrat who'll let Citibank pick their cabinet like Obama did in 2008.
People need to understand that, even when the majority votes blue, their votes do not actually result in policy. We have to break the false sense of political agency that voting gives people. But the purpose is ultimately not to stop people from voting, but to make them start organizing.
Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens (2014)
I really like your point about voting not resulting in policy, I'd completely forgotten about that study and will be using it. But I'd like to clarify something:
It doesn't matter if you're liberal or conservative or a leftist any single vote doesn't matter because single votes do not typically determine elections. Like you can be a liberal in a conservative area you'll be out voted or a liberal in a liberal area will likely have their candidate win by a significant margin meaning their vote didn't really matter either.
again, you'll just get "What if everyone thought that way."
but I agree it's worth pointing out that a lot of ballots are basically thrown in the trash, if you don't live in a swing area in this gerrymandered hell country.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I'm an anarcho-communist, so I'm not saying the solutions to the world's problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I'll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn't. My mentality on voting is that if it's easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more "realistic" to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I'll even join you, but the notion that you'll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
Amazing! I'd call this progress.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
Ok, at least that's a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
Nope. But I think having people in power that don't have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I'm in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems -- and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
Yes, it is Republicans I'm not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they're unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won't do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
No disagreement here I'm not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There's a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they're "apolitical" and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they're functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Forgot to add
Hope -- hope that others will do the same and work together to make a better future. The pantry will be there next weekend.
It's false hope, and that false hope brings complacency. why organize when voting is sufficient?
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
This is some Obama era shit. Hope isn't feeding people.
I am finishing my PhD and getting the fuck out of this state. Once I have the means I will absolutely run for school board to keep a lib or a hog out of the spot and promote a Marxist indoctrination of our nation's youth.
Again, I'm not against voting for the lesser of two evils, but I am not going to spend my time advocating for an anti-choice, anti-trans, anti-gay hog. We have "progressives" who gain traction on a state wide basis and the Democratic party systematically kneecaps them every time because it is an old boys club.
I am not asking for perfection I am asking for the Democratic party to be a functional party, which it isn't despite having the governorship in my state.
This phrase is the enemy of progress.
Its always used to argue for why we need to allow some lib bullshit, and shut up.
Is that really how I'm using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I'm asking my comrades not be idiots that think we're really close enough to full on communist revolution that it's worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
Believing that the people on this site have the power to influence US elections is what's not realistic
We all have a little bit of power to influence all kinds of stuff including US elections.. If our votes were not counted very rich people would not be wasting billions just to annoy people with too many political commercials.
The power (such as to end capitalism, not to control others) comes from influencing people and making more comrades which Hexbear is awful at.
The outcome of most states (in fact most counties, most precincts) is already known and condidered locked. If you live in most of the country and your vote is counter to that, what power does your vote have?
There's a lot of assumptions here. US presidential elections are multi billion dollar businesses. Political campaigns are a way for people to mske money. Rich people do waste billions on them. They are as grifted as anyone else, when it comes to this hollow polical system.
Seems to be a lot of comrades around here, and we've attracted a lot more since federation began. We're a non-sectarian space, but it is true that we aren't trying to be welcoming to
s because they aren't comrades at all and will not be unless they abandon their liberalism
An insulting people is your method to get them to abandon liberalism? Doesn't seem very effective to me but if you say it's working, good for y'all.
How many comrades are you making right now?
On Hexbear? I don't believe I have any methods to figure that out. I'd imagine not many, people don't like their ideology poked with sticks. I'm more hoping to get people to question their allegiance to super rich powerful men that lead states and tell their followers that supporting their power is what's best for everyone.
By telling communists they need to VOOOOOOOOTE for Biden?
No need to take it so seriously. I was mocking you and your concern trolling
And when the D's lose... because the D's lost enough times that the R's now run the state... what do you do then?
Voting for a piece of legislation, cool. Which is why all the cool things that people want don't get put up for public votes, we might actually get good stuff.
Voting for a person, who then gets to whatever they want carte blanche style for their entire term, meh.
Direct democracy, I agree would be better than representative, and maybe now even possible/practical with the internet.
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That's pure projection. You think you're doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of
ing in a fake democracy
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I'd imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I'm currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that's why you're all worked up about
on a communist site. You're projecting that onto us.
I'll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about
like we don't already know. Some of us do, some of us don't. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don't care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of
evangelism your on about is 
nonsense.
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This is actually not the part that makes you a lib. Hectoring people in a left space about VOTE is what we consider lib
Weird definition of liberal but I'll take it. My panties are not in a bunch because people call me a liberal, especially when it has to be redefined to apply.
I'm not defining or redefining anything. I'm saying VOTE evangelism is some lib nonsense, that's really the extent of what I'm saying.
voting is fine if you think there's a reason to engage in liberal democracy. Sometimes their are reasons to. There's never a reason to VOOOOTE evangelize on a left space
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We've talked about that, this is not an actual thing that exists. It only exists on your political compass which is bullshit.
We support AES states. We don't have parasocial relationships with the individuals in charge. I don't pretend to know what Xi "cares" about on a personal level. I support the CPC, and think Xi's leadership has been a positive force. I'm not misled in this.
So which enemies of the US are bad and which are good?
We support AES here. We don't support them just because they are enemies of the US. They are enemies precisely because they are AES. Some US enemies that aren't AES like Iran or Russia we don't support, although we have critical support for them in their conflicts with US hegemony.
None of these positions are based on assumptions of "goodness."
We don't have allegiance to Xi as a person. We have support of the CPC. We support the direction of things have gone in under his leadership, but as comminists we recognize he is only one man among many doing the work of building socialism. We have alliegence to everyone building socialism in thevreal world. Your not going to find support for Great Man Theory here, as much as you imagine it.
No one here has alligence to Putin. We have some critical support for the Russian Federations in its conflict with the US as i already explained. That's not allegiance to Putin no matter what you want to imagine are assume.
Everyone here knows that! The USians here all know how US elections work! We don't need anyone to tell us that.
Since we know how these elections work we also know that in presidential elections most of the populations votes don't matter. There are a handful of swing states, and even then its a handful of counties that determine presidential elections. The vast majority of Congress are safe districts. Senators are largely locked in a similar way that the electoral map breaks down. Its all designed to promote minority rule.
This is the reality of elections in the US. People here have different views on how to engage with this system, based on an understanding of the reality of it. And many of us are people directly targeted by fascists, and they aren't intetested in your vote evangelism either. There are times and arguements and circumstances where voting makes sense, but voooote evangelism is not that arguement, and presidential elections are usually not that circumstance.
No one here outright opposes voting in the right circumstances. That's why I'm saying that your whole exercise here is pointless. We don't oppose voting, we oppose voooooooote bullshit.