And to be 💯% honest, it was hard during this to be targeted+marred as some sellout-enemy of the people over a late tactical disagreement over 1 floor vote.Also a bummer to see figures excuse comments like “f- her and f- anyone who protects her.” That’s not tone,that’s violence— Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) January 2, 2021
expecting one lowly elected official to make a difference is.
I'm just jaded. I'm tired and political theater is a waste of time to me.
look at where america is now and compare it to the ideals of this forum. Is AOC going to achieve those ideals? no, she most definently is a lib and has no desire to. but imagine for a second that she wants to...could she? NO. we have to organize IRL to achieve those ideals. are we on the same page on this?
even when it comes to m4a, it'll take a coalition and class based organization.
the left hardly exists in real life. if it did, would folks like McConnell get elected to represent one of the most impoverished states in the country? his democratic challenger was just another capitalist goon!
I'm not gonna use her as a punching bag for our lack of power is what I'm saying.
This is well said, and you could say the same things about Bernie, ESPECIALLY if he somehow had become president. I'm honestly not even picking sides on "#forceTheVote", I'd obviously love for Pelosi to go either way, concessions or not. I've discussed the issue on here because I am curious about the strategic value of it and I don't have a firm answer.
The one thing I AM actually certain of is that it's illogical to think we can elect a social democrat and bully them on Twitter into being more aggressive. It's a complete disregard for the necessity of needing to build a politically organized working class. It's the ONLY thing that has historically achieved good things like M4A. Jimmy Dore's argument that "I bet they would vote for it actually" is a fucking braindead take, we can all throw it out. Brianha Joy's take is more interesting, that it's worth it to force the vote regardless because even though we can't win, there's a chance that it'll set a stage for public agitation. I somewhat lean toward this take because yeah, let's hold Pelosi hostage, even if the eventual win is purely symbolic. But I think what's insanely overstated is the effect that this would have in "creating a moment" for a "general strike" or "protests in the street". Idk, as you can tell I'm a bit torn on the subject, but I think it's important to note that this moment is just not all that consequential considering the disjointed power we have on the left.
I think Ben Burgis put it well in calling it "voluntarism" - the idea that a small portion of upper class hyper online people led by podcasts hosts can do it. That the reason we don't have M4A is because the 4 people we critically support in congress just don't WANT it badly enough.
thanks. I'm torn on the issue as well, and I agree with you that BJG's case for it is the most persuasive I've heard.
Where I draw the line is at turning on one of the few politicians who are vaguely on our side.
this entire notion of a vote galvanizing people, and an AOC floor speech changing hearts and minds; it reminds me of Chapo's criticisms of the west wing...its literally a daydream born out of naive electoralism. it has no regard for how little power the left has.
Idk. With everything I said against forceTheVote, I still think electoral politics is where the energy & focus is at right now. We desperately need ways to politicize the worker's movement, I do think the real work that needs to be done is in unionization votes & worker agitation. I would have loved for this energy to be put behind like idk, a mass IWW drive or something, but it's not like I drive these conversations. But maybe this whole force the vote thing is better than nothing. If focusing on forceTheVote pulls energy from worker's organizing, then yes, it should be avoided - but is it really? Isn't it like "do we hold Pelosi hostage, or do we not?" Are we really losing any political capital by Twitter people shitting on AOC?
It sucks, my analysis is so tainted by just agreeing with various podcasters who talk good. And I know it sounds technocratic but I am tempted to defer to DSA, considering they've been pretty instrumental in pushing M4A to the forefront, and because they're the closest thing to a large left party (even if I've disagreed with a lot of its strategy in the past). But I still don't know that I've heard a proper argument against forcing the vote. Lots of anti-forceTheVote shit is "this isn't how it works" which is what I said in my previous comment, and still agree with - but I'm also just not sure what the downsides are to this type of high-level political agitation. Like will AOC lose any support over this? I doubt that.
Ugh, thank you. Either electoralism matters, in which case maybe write her a letter or primary her if she's upsetting you so much, or it doesn't, in which case none of these issues, especially not how she uses the word "violence", are relevant or worth the stress. We have a lot of other shit to focus on.
no, holding people accountable isn't liberalism.
expecting one lowly elected official to make a difference is.
I'm just jaded. I'm tired and political theater is a waste of time to me.
look at where america is now and compare it to the ideals of this forum. Is AOC going to achieve those ideals? no, she most definently is a lib and has no desire to. but imagine for a second that she wants to...could she? NO. we have to organize IRL to achieve those ideals. are we on the same page on this?
even when it comes to m4a, it'll take a coalition and class based organization.
the left hardly exists in real life. if it did, would folks like McConnell get elected to represent one of the most impoverished states in the country? his democratic challenger was just another capitalist goon!
I'm not gonna use her as a punching bag for our lack of power is what I'm saying.
This is well said, and you could say the same things about Bernie, ESPECIALLY if he somehow had become president. I'm honestly not even picking sides on "#forceTheVote", I'd obviously love for Pelosi to go either way, concessions or not. I've discussed the issue on here because I am curious about the strategic value of it and I don't have a firm answer.
The one thing I AM actually certain of is that it's illogical to think we can elect a social democrat and bully them on Twitter into being more aggressive. It's a complete disregard for the necessity of needing to build a politically organized working class. It's the ONLY thing that has historically achieved good things like M4A. Jimmy Dore's argument that "I bet they would vote for it actually" is a fucking braindead take, we can all throw it out. Brianha Joy's take is more interesting, that it's worth it to force the vote regardless because even though we can't win, there's a chance that it'll set a stage for public agitation. I somewhat lean toward this take because yeah, let's hold Pelosi hostage, even if the eventual win is purely symbolic. But I think what's insanely overstated is the effect that this would have in "creating a moment" for a "general strike" or "protests in the street". Idk, as you can tell I'm a bit torn on the subject, but I think it's important to note that this moment is just not all that consequential considering the disjointed power we have on the left.
I think Ben Burgis put it well in calling it "voluntarism" - the idea that a small portion of upper class hyper online people led by podcasts hosts can do it. That the reason we don't have M4A is because the 4 people we critically support in congress just don't WANT it badly enough.
At least it's a very log-offy moment for me lol
thanks. I'm torn on the issue as well, and I agree with you that BJG's case for it is the most persuasive I've heard.
Where I draw the line is at turning on one of the few politicians who are vaguely on our side.
this entire notion of a vote galvanizing people, and an AOC floor speech changing hearts and minds; it reminds me of Chapo's criticisms of the west wing...its literally a daydream born out of naive electoralism. it has no regard for how little power the left has.
Idk. With everything I said against forceTheVote, I still think electoral politics is where the energy & focus is at right now. We desperately need ways to politicize the worker's movement, I do think the real work that needs to be done is in unionization votes & worker agitation. I would have loved for this energy to be put behind like idk, a mass IWW drive or something, but it's not like I drive these conversations. But maybe this whole force the vote thing is better than nothing. If focusing on forceTheVote pulls energy from worker's organizing, then yes, it should be avoided - but is it really? Isn't it like "do we hold Pelosi hostage, or do we not?" Are we really losing any political capital by Twitter people shitting on AOC?
It sucks, my analysis is so tainted by just agreeing with various podcasters who talk good. And I know it sounds technocratic but I am tempted to defer to DSA, considering they've been pretty instrumental in pushing M4A to the forefront, and because they're the closest thing to a large left party (even if I've disagreed with a lot of its strategy in the past). But I still don't know that I've heard a proper argument against forcing the vote. Lots of anti-forceTheVote shit is "this isn't how it works" which is what I said in my previous comment, and still agree with - but I'm also just not sure what the downsides are to this type of high-level political agitation. Like will AOC lose any support over this? I doubt that.
As you can see I cannot log off.
Ugh, thank you. Either electoralism matters, in which case maybe write her a letter or primary her if she's upsetting you so much, or it doesn't, in which case none of these issues, especially not how she uses the word "violence", are relevant or worth the stress. We have a lot of other shit to focus on.
do it right or dont do it at all.