I usually don't see the transphobia stuff until after the fact when a trans comrade is explaining it to others. We need a way to get transphobic content in front of the cis users so people can't dismiss it by saying "I didn't see it so it must not be that bad." Maybe a weekly digest of problematic content? I know that sounds stupid but the only other way is for all the cis people to just follow around the trans people's posts and wait for it to show up. The next issue is that we don't want to saddle trans comrades with homework. It shouldn't fall on them to find and document bad posts. Or to explain to cis people why the posts are bad.
Speaking of following people around. I think it's extremely easy for cumtown and stupidpol users to find someone, target them, and then just keep following them around the site and harassing them with different accounts. Anyone can browse the site without being logged in. Then all you have to do is start an account and you can fuck with people. Maybe something about this needs to change. But I don't know what tools lemmy provides or what to do on the technical side.
We never solved the discord stuff. Remember the beginning when we were constantly hit with wreckers over discord drama? People carried a lot of online baggage with them to this site and then we were raided constantly for a while until mods cracked down enough and the raiders got bored. But are they bored? How much of this is specifically stupidpol and cumtown? How much of it is some really obsessive people from discord biding their time for a few months and then ramping up attacks? There is a genre of poster that will absolutely wield the racism, transphobia, sexism, classism, ableism, etc they supposedly despise against others.
None of this is to dismiss the real and present transphobia that exists inherently in large groups of chronically online straight white guys (and some women). This is a problem I've seen in real leftist orgs too. It's not flat out "I hate trans people." But it's more like constantly questioning their claims, be skeptical of their problems, dismissing their problems as petty infighting. But I feel like outside of the blatant transphobe attacks this kind of transphobia is easier to change. Though it tends to be harder to point out because it's a little more abstract than someone spamming that /pol/ copy pasta. This would just require a select group of cis people to work with the remaining trans comrades and sort of take on the labor of explaining to other cis people what's up. Now there's trouble with that idea because you don't want cis people ignoring trans people and just listening to second-hand experiences from other cis people. The point is to get people to listen to trans people. I just mean cis people can help with the writing and posting and monitoring the threads and taking on arguments if that's okay with the trans comrades. Because one of the things I have seen is that our trans friends do not want to keep having to explain basic shit to cis people. So therefore we can let some highly curated group of cis volunteers take up that labor.
People calling for mod elections need to stop. Web sites are not democratic and they don't have to be. The only real assurance of democracy is the handing off of power. So unless the admin are going to hand off the passwords and access to the site over every election, then it's not a democracy. It's a superficial layer of voting on something that's inherently undemocratic. You vote in new mods then they do what the stupididpol people want and declare trans comrades not valid then the admin boots the new mods immediately. Then you're right back where you started. If you don't like the site, make one. Nothing is stopping you from making a branch of lemmy for yourself. Or starting a discord server where you get to be in charge. Or slack. Or many other open source, federated, etc services. Also, why the fuck are people trying to organize a mod team on a website when you can be putting that energy into democratizing your workplace? People will spend hours making sock-puppet accounts and working around bans but can't be bothered to host a zoom meeting with your coworkers and get them hyped about a union. C'mon. And yes it's better to spend time creating a safe space online than holding mod elections.
Stop dismissing everything as infighting. This isn't about trots vs MLs. This isn't an accelerationism struggle session. It's a fundamental question of who gets to be part of the leftist project and culture. If you think trans people have no place in the left then you don't need to be here. I don't care if you think you have a right to be here or you think I'm a bad leftist for saying so. I don't know what the path to socialism is but I know it must include all marginalized groups and include them in the decision making process. There is no other side to this debate. Just like there is no other side to whether or not we should have slavery or any other very clear moral choice. This is not just a difference in tendency. It's not a minor disagreement over tactics. It's not #forcethevote. It's people's lives and livelihoods and that deserves to be discussed and argued about whether it makes you uncomfortable or not. Grow the fuck up.
Going back to the old days of the internet: make the site painful for them to use. Trans-solidarity theme. Make it the only theme available. Pink white and blue. Trans flag. Having to see that shit every time they log on will vex them.
We need a way to get transphobic content in front of the cis users so people can’t dismiss it by saying “I didn’t see it so it must not be that bad.” Maybe a weekly digest of problematic content?
A lot of this, but especially the section I quoted, sounds like some kind of Chapo Chat Wiki would be helpful in this regard.
Agreed. Ironically the lack of downvotes seems to be doing this somewhat. I know I've seen more rather than coming after they've been banned/removed etc.
This gave me the mental image of me sitting down in an overstuffed chair by a fireplace in a robe, then pulling out a paper magazine titled Problematic Content with all that bad stuff in it.
+1 for a "Weekly Mod Log Digest" post or something similar, where the funniest, saddest, worst content that got removed or got users banned gets posted (with a CW obviously) and maybe stickied so that the community can see a curated feed of what the mods and admins are removing and what people are getting banned for. Maybe with a "number of transmisogynistic copypasta posts removed" and stuff like that. Curating it would be a little work but I think it would be good to have a "best/worst of" made more visible periodically
I usually don't see the transphobia stuff until after the fact when a trans comrade is explaining it to others. We need a way to get transphobic content in front of the cis users so people can't dismiss it by saying "I didn't see it so it must not be that bad." Maybe a weekly digest of problematic content? I know that sounds stupid but the only other way is for all the cis people to just follow around the trans people's posts and wait for it to show up. The next issue is that we don't want to saddle trans comrades with homework. It shouldn't fall on them to find and document bad posts. Or to explain to cis people why the posts are bad.
Speaking of following people around. I think it's extremely easy for cumtown and stupidpol users to find someone, target them, and then just keep following them around the site and harassing them with different accounts. Anyone can browse the site without being logged in. Then all you have to do is start an account and you can fuck with people. Maybe something about this needs to change. But I don't know what tools lemmy provides or what to do on the technical side.
We never solved the discord stuff. Remember the beginning when we were constantly hit with wreckers over discord drama? People carried a lot of online baggage with them to this site and then we were raided constantly for a while until mods cracked down enough and the raiders got bored. But are they bored? How much of this is specifically stupidpol and cumtown? How much of it is some really obsessive people from discord biding their time for a few months and then ramping up attacks? There is a genre of poster that will absolutely wield the racism, transphobia, sexism, classism, ableism, etc they supposedly despise against others.
None of this is to dismiss the real and present transphobia that exists inherently in large groups of chronically online straight white guys (and some women). This is a problem I've seen in real leftist orgs too. It's not flat out "I hate trans people." But it's more like constantly questioning their claims, be skeptical of their problems, dismissing their problems as petty infighting. But I feel like outside of the blatant transphobe attacks this kind of transphobia is easier to change. Though it tends to be harder to point out because it's a little more abstract than someone spamming that /pol/ copy pasta. This would just require a select group of cis people to work with the remaining trans comrades and sort of take on the labor of explaining to other cis people what's up. Now there's trouble with that idea because you don't want cis people ignoring trans people and just listening to second-hand experiences from other cis people. The point is to get people to listen to trans people. I just mean cis people can help with the writing and posting and monitoring the threads and taking on arguments if that's okay with the trans comrades. Because one of the things I have seen is that our trans friends do not want to keep having to explain basic shit to cis people. So therefore we can let some highly curated group of cis volunteers take up that labor.
People calling for mod elections need to stop. Web sites are not democratic and they don't have to be. The only real assurance of democracy is the handing off of power. So unless the admin are going to hand off the passwords and access to the site over every election, then it's not a democracy. It's a superficial layer of voting on something that's inherently undemocratic. You vote in new mods then they do what the stupididpol people want and declare trans comrades not valid then the admin boots the new mods immediately. Then you're right back where you started. If you don't like the site, make one. Nothing is stopping you from making a branch of lemmy for yourself. Or starting a discord server where you get to be in charge. Or slack. Or many other open source, federated, etc services. Also, why the fuck are people trying to organize a mod team on a website when you can be putting that energy into democratizing your workplace? People will spend hours making sock-puppet accounts and working around bans but can't be bothered to host a zoom meeting with your coworkers and get them hyped about a union. C'mon. And yes it's better to spend time creating a safe space online than holding mod elections.
Stop dismissing everything as infighting. This isn't about trots vs MLs. This isn't an accelerationism struggle session. It's a fundamental question of who gets to be part of the leftist project and culture. If you think trans people have no place in the left then you don't need to be here. I don't care if you think you have a right to be here or you think I'm a bad leftist for saying so. I don't know what the path to socialism is but I know it must include all marginalized groups and include them in the decision making process. There is no other side to this debate. Just like there is no other side to whether or not we should have slavery or any other very clear moral choice. This is not just a difference in tendency. It's not a minor disagreement over tactics. It's not #forcethevote. It's people's lives and livelihoods and that deserves to be discussed and argued about whether it makes you uncomfortable or not. Grow the fuck up.
Going back to the old days of the internet: make the site painful for them to use. Trans-solidarity theme. Make it the only theme available. Pink white and blue. Trans flag. Having to see that shit every time they log on will vex them.
A lot of this, but especially the section I quoted, sounds like some kind of Chapo Chat Wiki would be helpful in this regard.
Agreed. Ironically the lack of downvotes seems to be doing this somewhat. I know I've seen more rather than coming after they've been banned/removed etc.
This gave me the mental image of me sitting down in an overstuffed chair by a fireplace in a robe, then pulling out a paper magazine titled Problematic Content with all that bad stuff in it.
You get your copy of Problematic Content yet this week Jenkins?
The name Problematic Content actually goes tbh
deleted by creator
I think this is an excellent and well thought out post for what it's worth. Thanks.
+1 for a "Weekly Mod Log Digest" post or something similar, where the funniest, saddest, worst content that got removed or got users banned gets posted (with a CW obviously) and maybe stickied so that the community can see a curated feed of what the mods and admins are removing and what people are getting banned for. Maybe with a "number of transmisogynistic copypasta posts removed" and stuff like that. Curating it would be a little work but I think it would be good to have a "best/worst of" made more visible periodically