• CyborgMarx [any, any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    The military isn't part of the proletariat unless a draft is instituted, this is basic shit, like come on

    • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
      ·
      4 years ago

      It is basic shit. Their relationship to the means of production is the same as a factory worker's or an office clerk: they sell their time, their labor for compensation. They work for the interests of the capitalist class.

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]
        ·
        4 years ago

        WTF are you talking about, they have no relations to the means of production, they're completely insulated by the state, physically, psychologically and financially, they're sole purpose is to enforce the capitalist state's monopoly of violence, that is not the function of the working class

        Subjugating the global working class is not a fuckin form of labor

        • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
          ·
          4 years ago

          They absolutely do. Their labor fuels the military industrial complex.

          Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets. That's a joke.

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]
            ·
            4 years ago

            THEY DO NOT PERFORM ECONOMIC LABOR, do you think solders are the ones building the tanks, the planes, the guns? They are a drain, literal weapons of the state, they're function is to kill and enforce, there is no relation here with the working class other than thru cultural affectation or like I said a mass draft which isn't the case in the United States

            Psychologically and financially insulated? Tell that to homeless vets

            We're not talking about homeless vets

            • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
              ·
              4 years ago

              If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly? We absolutely are talking about vets, there is no decoupling of the subject.

              Whether it's manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact. It is a form of labor, the labor that the military industrial complex fundamentally subsists off of. Without that labor, there can be no military industrial complex.

              Just because some of the labor is mind bogglingly awful, does not make it not labor.

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]
                ·
                4 years ago

                If soldiers are so insulated, how do homeless vets exist, exactly?

                Because they're no longer insulated once they're cut loose, this isn't rocket science

                there is no decoupling of the subject.

                lol there absolutely is because the state does it for us

                Whether it’s manning a ship, defending a border, or taking an oilfield, it has a huge, tangible economic impact

                Economic IMPACT is not the same thing as economic output or maintenance, you're confusing concepts and terms, whether soldiers perform a FORM of labor is irreverent, with no relations to the means of production they cannot be working class, by your universal definition of labor every human on the planet is a member of the "working class", you're talking nonsense

                And the military industrial complex doesn't subsist on the labor of soldiers, it subsists on our tax dollars

                • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  If they have no material well being after deployment, what insulation of any type is there? This seems pretty asinine, they're only insulted while they're being shot at and eating military rations?

                  Your point about economic output/impact interests me. Let's take a private analogous example. Let's consider something less potentially murdery...

                  Instead of a military patrol on the coast, let's take a security guard at like, a small downtown office. Do they have no economic output? Is "security" an impact but not an output? Are poorly paid laborers that only have "impact" not a part of the working class?

                  • CyborgMarx [any, any]
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    4 years ago

                    The insulation is the free housing, the free education, the free healthcare, the glorified gated communities that are built to contain and isolate them, "being shot at" and "eating military conditions" just wtf do you think American soldiers are doing at any given moment, you have a pretty bizarre view of the military, are you American?

                    let’s take a security guard at like, a small downtown office.

                    Cops aren't working class either, but MOST private sector security guards would be considered a maintenance role, overseeing products or the means of production in the function of a glorified alarm system, with state enforcement of property rights being left to the actual cops, an antagonistic element of the working class (since it's basically just snitching as a job) but still working class, and what type of paid laborers aren't engaged in economic output of one form or another, you like to play with words in a pretty ass backwards way but again this isn't rocket science

                    Volunteer soldiers who aren't discharged by the state aren't working class, pretty simple stuff

          • The_word_of_dog [he/him]
            ·
            4 years ago

            Alright you've played your hand at this point. Calling the bluff, this is a bit

            • supermangoman [he/him, they/them]
              ·
              4 years ago

              Haha I'm afraid it totally isn't!

              I do non-ironically appreciate the indignant responses because they have me thinking more deeply about what "class" is.

              Don't get me wrong, I believe in an ideal world there would be no military, no police.

              I support "defunding" the police, and withdrawing our troops from abroad.

              But I don't believe in demonizing the individuals. Nor do I think having a military or a police force is intrinsically wrong.

              And yeah, I'm sympathetic towards the ACAB sentiment since I've never once had a positive experience with cops. Mostly scared of getting murdered.

              But again, I think it's really important to direct our hatred and anger towards the right places.