Thoughts on this? Reading this it feels almost like seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. For years I projected a lot of this discourse onto myself, possibly as a way to mask over my own gender identity issues.
I held back every response I could think of because I didn't feel like I could convince someone I was bringing it forward in good faith. But if we bring up our trans comrades in the context of this dialogue I feel like we could really be taken seriously. Like it opens up so many opportunities for solidarity.
What am I missing here? What do you folks think?
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I always did. It hurts, especially for trans men. Broad destructive statements help no one and breed resentment.
As a gay man I don't feel like I can openly talk about how men are amazing and I love them bc it goes against the prevailing "actually all men are bad and if you're not the problem you won't be offended by that:)"
Well yeah lol it turns out words have an effect on people. It's easier for those of us that hang around spaces like this to see "men are trash" and think to ourselves "Yeah, the patriarchy is trash" but when we use memes like "men are trash" it just strips away all nuance. I understand why people use the phrase of course, but I think ultimately that kind of thing isn't helpful. Especially when a man takes issue with it and the response is to call them weak or something to that effect. In that case it just reinforces shitty gender norms we're trying to counteract and educate people about.
Good question! I feel comfortable speaking for myself here since I'm becoming aware that these aren't just feelings I have. But it took me years to come around to reaching your point, in large part because of my privileged background. Now if you'll permit me to share:
I definitely had my anti-SJW phase in part because I would see it and felt like I was being targeted, despite having never felt like I was actively engaging shitty behavior. Like I mention in my OP, I definitely had gender identity issues I was unwilling to confront (I'm bigender) that among other things set me up to fail in my attempts to date women.
But even after I radicalized I think as a way to repress those issues I really overpoliced myself on what I thought would be perceived as "creepy" behavior. Like I literally demonized myself for being a man who was attracted to women because I'd read about so many experiences from women who had dealt with catcalling, sexual assault, unwanted attention etc. and didn't feel comfortable not knowing how my advances would come off.
I think one of my lowest self-esteem points was when I confessed to my therapist that I felt disgusted with myself when I asked a girl I was on a successful date with (while we were in the car ride home) where she felt okay with me touching her. Stuff like "is it okay if I touch your legs?". My therapist was super helpful in reassuring me that was polite, and a good way to get consent, but I gave myself shit for years thinking that request was coming from a place of uncontrollable, toxic, animalistic behavior. That I was just viewing this girl who I really liked (and she liked me back!) as a piece of meat I wanted to get my hands on.
I totally undercut the notion of positive romantic physical affection because as man that's just something I couldn't wrap my head around (thanks, patriarchy and gender identity issues), and instead hung on to the idea of "but what if I misread things and she thinks I'm sexually assaulting her" for a loooooooong time.
Woah, are you me? I'm just a trans woman, but I had exactly all the same experiences you were talking about. I never was able to confront my own negative self perceptions until I transitioned, but even now I have difficulties viewing my own capacity for love as okay and not just a gross animalistic urge. I have been dating my girlfriend for an extremely long time and I still ask if it's okay when I touch her. I'm glad I've been a socialist for so long and during my formentative years, but one thing is that seeing the abuses men can do and seeing other socialists talk about men the way that's easiest just made me very self conscious about my masculinity even before I realized I was trans.
Wow, that's pretty stunning to hear. Thankfully I started to slowly raise my self esteem, especially thanks to therapy, but coming to terms with my gender definitely feels like the final puzzle piece I needed to put myself out there and date other women with confidence.
I will say though, as a guy I have had one sexual experience with a woman (this was post-therapy) and I was able to ask for consent to touch her, etc. without feeling any shame! Somehow I was able to turn around my negative feelings into positive ones. Like it's totally normal to feel attracted to someone, and it's obviously a good thing to ask for consent (communication, yay). Plus, asking for consent puts me back in control too: it doesn't feel like I'm giving in to some kind of objectifying urge if I'm literally showing restraint by asking first. Maybe that's a useful perspective? Idk.
Yeah haha I get exactly what you mean, asking for consent (even at the worst times) helps me feel comfortable and lets me just have fun, but it's still a weird brain worm I have generally.
I also understand it in that way, but I think it's weird to expect everyone to do so when it's put out there in a public space. Is it that unreasonable for a random person to see that and take it completely literally? And even if they don't, the cumulative impact of seeing that take repeatedly may still influence them.
Look, I think we can have sympathy and understanding for people who are pushed to vent in this way, but a statement like "kill all men" or "men are trash" is a purely reactive take and reactive takes are rarely a good thing.
Are we not on the internet?
We are, but remember your words have power! (sorry, I can't quite tell how serious/sympathetic your comment is, I'm not trying to attack you here)
After a while of seeing those memes in combination with reading about people's very believable experiences with toxic masculinity, I overdid it and became very withdrawn and mired in the fear that I would be seen as "part of the problem".
Which now that I think about it, there were times where I definitely did not notice my attention was unwanted, and looking back on those instances I would validate my self-loathing. Needless to say, dismantling the patriarchy in favor of some positive role-models and depictions in media probably would have saved me and the women who I affected some grief.
Yeah, its a bad slogan that only hurts trans men and men who are recalcitrant for their incidental fuck ups and the crimes of patriarchy more broadly