Thoughts on this? Reading this it feels almost like seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. For years I projected a lot of this discourse onto myself, possibly as a way to mask over my own gender identity issues.
I held back every response I could think of because I didn't feel like I could convince someone I was bringing it forward in good faith. But if we bring up our trans comrades in the context of this dialogue I feel like we could really be taken seriously. Like it opens up so many opportunities for solidarity.
What am I missing here? What do you folks think?
So far so good. It seems like a lot of the issues people have with men are in reality with patriarchy. We need to reach out to men and teach them how patriarchy hurts them too.
Right, I really think it'd look great to bring some positivity to men's lives for once. Like the first time I heard "dudes rock" it really resonated with me and I think it'd be cool to build a slogan around it.
Maybe something like "dudes rock, the patriarchy does not"? Kind of mouthful but like it could really go a long way in helping decouple the two, while still acknowledging how men can uphold it (bonus intersectionality points if it gets people to understand that men aren't the only people who can uphold the patriarchy too)
gets people to understand that men aren’t the only people who can uphold the patriarchy too
More people need to understand this.
Maybe you're right. Maybe we should. I'm skeptical though.
I've tried to reach out to men god knows how many times. It never works. I had to cut off friendly relationships with multiple guy friends who fell into various right-wing traps (inceldom, pickup artistry, Jordan Peterson, etc) precisely because every attempt to help them out in any way was met with abuse and toxicity, no matter how nice and understanding I tried to be. In fact, it made it worse, because the guys I'm talking about deliberately created a manipulative atmosphere of emotional blackmail, where I'm supposed to constantly walk on eggshells to not hurt their delicate feelings, and if I say the wrong word, suddenly I'm the evil leftist who's out to get them.
I'm a cishet dude, I like dude stuff, I'm comfortable being a dude, and I'm fucking done with men. I can't even imagine what women and trans people feel, when they're told “just try being nice to men one more time”.
Yeah I hear you. Those types you do indeed need to just cut off because they're not going to get it until it hurts them personally. I was like that in a way, I upheld patriarchy until it hurt me.
Except patriarchy already hurts them. I sometimes facetiously say that I'm a feminist for selfish reasons, namely that every supposedly pro-men movement out there directly hurts men, and only feminism actually cares for men. There's nothing more anti-male than being told that “men are animals who can't control their desire for sex” or “women will only love you for your money, alphaness, and social status”. Suddenly you read those evil, evil feminists, and they say shit like “rape is about power, and men being assholes is due to socialization”, and suddenly you're like those pink-haired psychos are actually the first people ever to respect me and consider me a human being.
Being a misogynist is like eating a cactus, it makes your life fucking miserable. All these incels, “masculinists”, abusive boyfriends, they are the saddest people in the world. Patriarchy already hurts them, you'd think that “hey, I've got this thing that will massively improve your quality of life” would entice them to drop their shitty beliefs, but it doesn't. So I don't think waiting for them to be hurt is a good strategy, because they are hurt every second of their life, and it isn't working.
Then like I said, you need to just cut them off. I was lucky in a way that I was able to save myself but for every me there's a million toxic shitheads. I just don't want to take an extremist stance and say all men are inherently bad is all, you know?
Nobody on the left is saying “all men are inherently bad” though. Only TERFs believe in this gender essentialist nonsense. In fact, the only woman I personally know who unironically believed in this sort of thing is a giant TERF and she can go fuck herself on that alone.
So as a masc trans woman, I think the issue is that the fish don't know that they are wet. Our info and perspective needs to be spread in such a casual, matter of fact, but ubiquitous way that it just becomes the matter of fact. Similar to workers, whos issue is capitalism, they dont know the actual language to describe their real, root issues.
I always did. It hurts, especially for trans men. Broad destructive statements help no one and breed resentment.
As a gay man I don't feel like I can openly talk about how men are amazing and I love them bc it goes against the prevailing "actually all men are bad and if you're not the problem you won't be offended by that:)"
Do people really take it personally?
Well yeah lol it turns out words have an effect on people. It's easier for those of us that hang around spaces like this to see "men are trash" and think to ourselves "Yeah, the patriarchy is trash" but when we use memes like "men are trash" it just strips away all nuance. I understand why people use the phrase of course, but I think ultimately that kind of thing isn't helpful. Especially when a man takes issue with it and the response is to call them weak or something to that effect. In that case it just reinforces shitty gender norms we're trying to counteract and educate people about.
Good question! I feel comfortable speaking for myself here since I'm becoming aware that these aren't just feelings I have. But it took me years to come around to reaching your point, in large part because of my privileged background. Now if you'll permit me to share:
I definitely had my anti-SJW phase in part because I would see it and felt like I was being targeted, despite having never felt like I was actively engaging shitty behavior. Like I mention in my OP, I definitely had gender identity issues I was unwilling to confront (I'm bigender) that among other things set me up to fail in my attempts to date women.
But even after I radicalized I think as a way to repress those issues I really overpoliced myself on what I thought would be perceived as "creepy" behavior. Like I literally demonized myself for being a man who was attracted to women because I'd read about so many experiences from women who had dealt with catcalling, sexual assault, unwanted attention etc. and didn't feel comfortable not knowing how my advances would come off.
I think one of my lowest self-esteem points was when I confessed to my therapist that I felt disgusted with myself when I asked a girl I was on a successful date with (while we were in the car ride home) where she felt okay with me touching her. Stuff like "is it okay if I touch your legs?". My therapist was super helpful in reassuring me that was polite, and a good way to get consent, but I gave myself shit for years thinking that request was coming from a place of uncontrollable, toxic, animalistic behavior. That I was just viewing this girl who I really liked (and she liked me back!) as a piece of meat I wanted to get my hands on.
I totally undercut the notion of positive romantic physical affection because as man that's just something I couldn't wrap my head around (thanks, patriarchy and gender identity issues), and instead hung on to the idea of "but what if I misread things and she thinks I'm sexually assaulting her" for a loooooooong time.
Woah, are you me? I'm just a trans woman, but I had exactly all the same experiences you were talking about. I never was able to confront my own negative self perceptions until I transitioned, but even now I have difficulties viewing my own capacity for love as okay and not just a gross animalistic urge. I have been dating my girlfriend for an extremely long time and I still ask if it's okay when I touch her. I'm glad I've been a socialist for so long and during my formentative years, but one thing is that seeing the abuses men can do and seeing other socialists talk about men the way that's easiest just made me very self conscious about my masculinity even before I realized I was trans.
Wow, that's pretty stunning to hear. Thankfully I started to slowly raise my self esteem, especially thanks to therapy, but coming to terms with my gender definitely feels like the final puzzle piece I needed to put myself out there and date other women with confidence.
I will say though, as a guy I have had one sexual experience with a woman (this was post-therapy) and I was able to ask for consent to touch her, etc. without feeling any shame! Somehow I was able to turn around my negative feelings into positive ones. Like it's totally normal to feel attracted to someone, and it's obviously a good thing to ask for consent (communication, yay). Plus, asking for consent puts me back in control too: it doesn't feel like I'm giving in to some kind of objectifying urge if I'm literally showing restraint by asking first. Maybe that's a useful perspective? Idk.
Yeah haha I get exactly what you mean, asking for consent (even at the worst times) helps me feel comfortable and lets me just have fun, but it's still a weird brain worm I have generally.
I also understand it in that way, but I think it's weird to expect everyone to do so when it's put out there in a public space. Is it that unreasonable for a random person to see that and take it completely literally? And even if they don't, the cumulative impact of seeing that take repeatedly may still influence them.
Look, I think we can have sympathy and understanding for people who are pushed to vent in this way, but a statement like "kill all men" or "men are trash" is a purely reactive take and reactive takes are rarely a good thing.
We are, but remember your words have power! (sorry, I can't quite tell how serious/sympathetic your comment is, I'm not trying to attack you here)
After a while of seeing those memes in combination with reading about people's very believable experiences with toxic masculinity, I overdid it and became very withdrawn and mired in the fear that I would be seen as "part of the problem".
Which now that I think about it, there were times where I definitely did not notice my attention was unwanted, and looking back on those instances I would validate my self-loathing. Needless to say, dismantling the patriarchy in favor of some positive role-models and depictions in media probably would have saved me and the women who I affected some grief.
Yeah, its a bad slogan that only hurts trans men and men who are recalcitrant for their incidental fuck ups and the crimes of patriarchy more broadly
I've always felt like I can't talk about the subject, because either you say " I agree men are trash but at some points I do feel targeted by resentment." and they say "Well if you feel offended by this you're the problem." or you pretend like you're not part of the problem and don't get offended at all and sit on the sidelines when someone else says something stupid like "Men are Trash is sexist, imagine if we went around saying "Women are trash?" as if that's not the entire point of their argument is to flip it onto men. I've always been against the patriarchy, and there are so many things that women have to deal with, and I think it's unfortunate and heartbreaking what women have to go through to get to the point where they unironically resort to "Kill All Men." as their everything, politically.
It's a culture war, and I hope they win, but I can't imagine what it actually accomplishes other than securing safe spaces for women hurt by men. (Which is good) but also, it's not going to force men as a whole to reconsider their life choices and the shitty stuff that they regularly engage in. (I don't know how you would best do that, which is why i'm not one to criticize)
Yeah I mean literally my first reaction was "not all men" which is used in bad faith and would absolve me of all responsibility without really giving the issues much thought. So I just never said it.
But hearing how this has also affected men who are marginalized in other ways gives me hope that I can use my privilege to build solidarity with those groups, and then as a whole we can collectively say "Hey, that hurts. Is there another way we can communicate this with less collateral damage?" and know that we'll be taken seriously.
So been reading Whipping girl by Julia Serano and this part stood out to me.
But it is not enough for us to empower femaleness and femininity. We must also stop pretending that there are essential differences between women and men. This begins with the acknowledgment that there are exceptions to every gender rule and stereotype, and this simply stated fact disproves all gender theories that purport that female and male are mutually exclusive categories. We must move away from pretending that women and men are “opposite” sexes, because when we buy into that myth it establishes a dangerous precedent. For if men are big, then women must be small; and if men are strong then women must be weak. And if being butch is to make yourself rock-solid, then being femme becomes allowing yourself to be malleable; and if being a man means taking control of your own situation, then being a woman becomes living up to other people’s expectations. When we buy into the idea that female and male are “opposites,” it becomes impossible for us to empower women without either ridiculing men or pulling the rug out from under ourselves. It is only when we move away from the idea that there are “opposite” sexes, and let go of the culturally derived values that are assigned to expressions of femininity and masculinity, that we may finally approach gender equity. By challenging both oppositional and traditional sexism simultaneously, we can make the world safe for those of us who are queer, those of us who are feminine, and those of us who are female, thus empowering people of all sexualities and genders.
Uh sorry for wall of text but thought all that was important. I would love for others here to read this too. I'm like 70 pages in and gonna knuckle down today and tomorrow to try to finish it by sunday night. The writer still believes in being able to live as both man and woman but has a very nuanced approach to the expectations and ideas about masc and femme. If I finish this book in time sometime next week want to give y'all my thought on how it applies to us here on menby.
Menslib is generally a pretty good sub and at least one of the mods is an anticapitalist, I forget which one but I remember seeing them rip into some debatebro chud - but it's always been a sub that's receptive to class analysis.
i hate myself to the point that im fine with kill all men if it means i get clapped first
