There's no central accrediting system for who gets to call themselves an anarchist*. Being pro-imperialist and anarchist at the same time is a weird thing to be. But people call themselves anarcho-capitalists all the time too so whatever. I'm not the language police. And the language police are an oppressive force anyway, ALCAB.
What counts as "pro-imperialism" differs a lot in anarchist circles than in ML ones. MLs are really big on circling the wagons and never criticizing a country that's the current target of imperialism. But for anarchists "this country is bad" is the default mode because fuck the state. So we get fights like; Of course China is bad, it's a state, why are we suddenly defending a state? No why are you pro-imperialist?
In related news. In cat body language, ears and tail up means "I'm relaxed and friendly," and in dog body language those same things mean "I want to fight," (may or not be playfully).
There are a lot of MLs here so I check my language and make sure to be gentle about criticizing China and what-have-you. And I do think the peace here is mostly anarchists being careful like that. It'd be nice to see ML's tack "Of course it's a state and eventually needs to be abolished" onto their analyses once in a while too.
* I mean... obviously? But I get a lot of anti-anarchist takes that work out to "some anarchist said something dumb and I blame all anarchists," so like, maybe not that obviously?
Oh wow that explanation makes a lot of sense. And I completely agree with your suggestion of saying "it's a state and eventually needs to be abolished". I think, I'll start doing that in real life too actually. So many times I'm talking to my family and friends about the current propaganda against China and they just assume I'm pro-China. Maybe this will help with that.
I don't want chapo to be an ML only space. I'm not ML (I don't know what I am). So I'm really glad people of all left tendencies are represented here.
MLs are really big on circling the wagons and never criticizing a country that’s the current target of imperialism. But for anarchists “this country is bad” is the default mode because fuck the state. So we get fights like; Of course China is bad, it’s a state, why are we suddenly defending a state? No why are you pro-imperialist?
This is it, right here. MLs and anarchists, when you get to the bottom of their nuanced takes on 'China', have basically similar conclusions, they just communicate them differently.
A lot of MLs can't hear the phrase 'China is kinda fucked' without assuming it's some CIA propaganda, because they tend to focus on the overall 'effects' of criticizing China, and on who tends to criticize China, rather than who is in this particular moment, and for what reason. It's a very utilitarian perspective on what a 'truth statement' is, whereas anarchist have no problem just telling it like it is. And, really, again, MLs and anarchists tend to actually agree on the specifics of those criticisms.
In a very similar vein, MLs often say things like 'China isn't bad', and what they really mean is 'China is the lesser of two evils when compared to the u.s.'. But to anarchists, it's like 'why would you apologize on behalf of China because they're vaguely closer to what you want than the states'.
It's just a lot of mixed communication, though I agree anarchists have to be a fair bit more careful here than MLs, just cuz the numbers. FWIW, I do see a fair few MLs say things like 'China's not great, but the best chance at a socialist superpower' or Dengist lines like 'they're just doing state capitalism to prepare for the transition', etc.
But I'm dogmatically tendency-agnostic, so I would never say something like 'it might do the MLs here some good to focus less on the idealism of what China could be/claims to be, and more on the materialism of what it is' hahaha ;) 👀
Ultimately, I'm just happy how well everyone gets along here, even if I throw the odd idea out about how we could do that even better :heart-sickle:
Good take. I've also observed a phenomenon I'd call "ML Realism" where a principled opposition to pretty much all states is considered unrealistic and childish, while the notion that China replacing the US as imperial hegemon will deliver full communism by 2080 is hard-nosed materialist analysis. C'mon man!
Nihlist Communism is right--the revolution ain't happening soon, and if does happen soon, we certainly won't accurately predict how it will happen.
"Of course it’s a state and eventually needs to be abolished"
I'm like a 'tankiddie', haven't read nearly enough. But I feel like this whole "state needs to be abolished" thing easily conflates nationalism and having a government.
I oppose nationalism, and a utopian society would have open borders; but at no point could I say that government should be abolished, at most it could be decentralized.
To me, land without government is just a power vacuum. If "abolish the state" means abolish the nation state, then sure, abolish it.
I think people should be more precise when they say "abolish the state"; because I don't even know what it means, and I actually try listening to anarchists sometimes.
I could be wrong, but I think everyone, from communists to anarchists, believe that, under communism, once the state has gone, we'll still need governance, just not via a state--ie. one decision-making body, separate from the people, that has a monopoly on violence and makes laws and enforces them through coercion, etc.
You'll still need town councils and federated governance and, like, a train gang to keep the trains running and all that good stuff. It's hard to specifically prefigure, but it'll still all be organized :) after all, even MLs say it's just socialism until 'the state withers away' into communism, which is only pedantically different from 'abolish the state' :)
I ultimately don't need to agree or disagree with how Chinese people organize themselves. I feel like the world has had white people policing their thought for long enough and it's time for some BIPOC people to get a kick at the can.
There's no central accrediting system for who gets to call themselves an anarchist*. Being pro-imperialist and anarchist at the same time is a weird thing to be. But people call themselves anarcho-capitalists all the time too so whatever. I'm not the language police. And the language police are an oppressive force anyway, ALCAB.
What counts as "pro-imperialism" differs a lot in anarchist circles than in ML ones. MLs are really big on circling the wagons and never criticizing a country that's the current target of imperialism. But for anarchists "this country is bad" is the default mode because fuck the state. So we get fights like; Of course China is bad, it's a state, why are we suddenly defending a state? No why are you pro-imperialist?
In related news. In cat body language, ears and tail up means "I'm relaxed and friendly," and in dog body language those same things mean "I want to fight," (may or not be playfully).
There are a lot of MLs here so I check my language and make sure to be gentle about criticizing China and what-have-you. And I do think the peace here is mostly anarchists being careful like that. It'd be nice to see ML's tack "Of course it's a state and eventually needs to be abolished" onto their analyses once in a while too.
* I mean... obviously? But I get a lot of anti-anarchist takes that work out to "some anarchist said something dumb and I blame all anarchists," so like, maybe not that obviously?
Oh wow that explanation makes a lot of sense. And I completely agree with your suggestion of saying "it's a state and eventually needs to be abolished". I think, I'll start doing that in real life too actually. So many times I'm talking to my family and friends about the current propaganda against China and they just assume I'm pro-China. Maybe this will help with that. I don't want chapo to be an ML only space. I'm not ML (I don't know what I am). So I'm really glad people of all left tendencies are represented here.
Why not MLK? There's something to be said for Marxism-Leninism-Kropotkinism. Just be on the lookout for those odd Marxist-Kropotkinist ultras.
I like you :af-heart:
It'd be pretty funny if there was
Just ask the CEO of anarchism, they'll put it on the to-do list
Obama pioneered the antifa work program
deleted by creator
This is it, right here. MLs and anarchists, when you get to the bottom of their nuanced takes on 'China', have basically similar conclusions, they just communicate them differently.
A lot of MLs can't hear the phrase 'China is kinda fucked' without assuming it's some CIA propaganda, because they tend to focus on the overall 'effects' of criticizing China, and on who tends to criticize China, rather than who is in this particular moment, and for what reason. It's a very utilitarian perspective on what a 'truth statement' is, whereas anarchist have no problem just telling it like it is. And, really, again, MLs and anarchists tend to actually agree on the specifics of those criticisms.
In a very similar vein, MLs often say things like 'China isn't bad', and what they really mean is 'China is the lesser of two evils when compared to the u.s.'. But to anarchists, it's like 'why would you apologize on behalf of China because they're vaguely closer to what you want than the states'.
It's just a lot of mixed communication, though I agree anarchists have to be a fair bit more careful here than MLs, just cuz the numbers. FWIW, I do see a fair few MLs say things like 'China's not great, but the best chance at a socialist superpower' or Dengist lines like 'they're just doing state capitalism to prepare for the transition', etc.
But I'm dogmatically tendency-agnostic, so I would never say something like 'it might do the MLs here some good to focus less on the idealism of what China could be/claims to be, and more on the materialism of what it is' hahaha ;) 👀
Ultimately, I'm just happy how well everyone gets along here, even if I throw the odd idea out about how we could do that even better :heart-sickle:
Good take. I've also observed a phenomenon I'd call "ML Realism" where a principled opposition to pretty much all states is considered unrealistic and childish, while the notion that China replacing the US as imperial hegemon will deliver full communism by 2080 is hard-nosed materialist analysis. C'mon man!
Nihlist Communism is right--the revolution ain't happening soon, and if does happen soon, we certainly won't accurately predict how it will happen.
I'm like a 'tankiddie', haven't read nearly enough. But I feel like this whole "state needs to be abolished" thing easily conflates nationalism and having a government.
I oppose nationalism, and a utopian society would have open borders; but at no point could I say that government should be abolished, at most it could be decentralized.
To me, land without government is just a power vacuum. If "abolish the state" means abolish the nation state, then sure, abolish it.
I think people should be more precise when they say "abolish the state"; because I don't even know what it means, and I actually try listening to anarchists sometimes.
I could be wrong, but I think everyone, from communists to anarchists, believe that, under communism, once the state has gone, we'll still need governance, just not via a state--ie. one decision-making body, separate from the people, that has a monopoly on violence and makes laws and enforces them through coercion, etc.
You'll still need town councils and federated governance and, like, a train gang to keep the trains running and all that good stuff. It's hard to specifically prefigure, but it'll still all be organized :) after all, even MLs say it's just socialism until 'the state withers away' into communism, which is only pedantically different from 'abolish the state' :)
I ultimately don't need to agree or disagree with how Chinese people organize themselves. I feel like the world has had white people policing their thought for long enough and it's time for some BIPOC people to get a kick at the can.