Do they think the Catalan Anarchists had no bourgeois blood on their hands? Do they think the Makhnovites never executed counterrevolutionaries? Fucking idiots. I preferred it when anarchists actually threw pipe bombs.

  • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Trying to figure out if the people doing the revolution are justified in their violence...

    us-foreign-policy

    Alright, I think I've got it.

    • ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      Doesn’t really work, Soviets of all races and ethnicities along with French and German communists are still horrifically despised. Their violence is also seen as “unjustifiable”.

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Slavs aren’t “really white.” You expect western “leftists” to know about the Paris commune or German revolution?

      • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Soviets of all races and ethnicities along with French and German communists are still horrifically despised

        I don't think they're really recognized as a cohort. When you talk about the German proletariat, its presumed you're talking about some blue collar auto worker or engineer or PMC banker. What's more, any kind of media coverage of Germany always fixates on the far-right elements of anti-government action. You'd never know East Germany was a thing, much less that German communists exist as a political force.

        With France, you get a vague acknowledgement of labor unions and riotous dissidents. But they're also traditionally described in the context of far-right parties, xenophobic ideology, and a blanket disdain for Anglophones rather than any kind of Internationalist labor sentiments. French communism as a movement is also heavily occluded in international media monologues.

        When you do get into anything resembling leftist ideology, it is typically described as a foreign element - Muslim/Hindu family homes/rejection of modern banking/vegetarianism or anarchism/anti-police sentiment in African ghettos or the insidious influence of the Chinese Communist Party on French/German domestic economies. I guess, we get a bit of an inversion of the trope. Less that "revolt is bad because foreign" and more "foreign is bad because its revolutionary".

        Eastern Europeans are a whole different thing. You've got the "good" Eastern Europeans (your Latvians and Estonians and Orbans and Navalneys) who align with the western finance sector. And then you've got the "bad" Eastern Europeans (your Putins and Lukashenkos and Serbs and Moldovians) who operate as a foreign policy boogieman that justify more NATO spending.

  • oscardejarjayes [comrade/them]
    ·
    1 year ago

    Anti-communist messaging and its consequences have been a disaster for anarchists. Too many people take the label because they recognize that capitalism isn't great, but don't go far enough to see the propaganda the state perpetuates. I desperately wish these "anarchists" would read theory, or join a cool anarchist group, and see the error in their ways.

    • sevenapples@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      It's weird how people can recognize that the government and the rich control what you see, know the terrorist and propaganda pushing actions of the CIA, but will not put two and two together and realize how it follows that they're not getting the complete story on the USSR, AES etc from them.

      I know because I was one of them and I still struggle with holding opposing opinions than what is constantly broadcasted by media and propagated by others.

    • oscardejarjayes [comrade/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      To quote myself "Vaush and "anarch-bidenism" have done terrible things to the online anarchist community."

  • UlyssesT
    ·
    edit-2
    2 months ago

    deleted by creator

    • oscardejarjayes [comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Yeah, we really need to put the theory back in anarchism. I've been having some vague thoughts of putting together an anarchist book club, but I haven't really decided on any details. Maybe IRL, maybe on Hexbear, don't really know.

      Lemmy.ml has an anarcho-book club, but in the sidebar it lists Rothbard and Trotsky as anarchists, among others. It also hasn't had a new post in about 2 years.

  • comrade-bear@lemmygrad.ml
    ·
    1 year ago

    And it kinda is, even Lenin said things along the lines that and revolution is a group forcing it's view onto society(only those views are dope and for the good of the people), it requires authority and structure therefore anarchists are either anti revolutionary or hypocritical about their revolutionary ideals

    • EredYasibu@lemm.ee
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      No, because the overthrow of the government, which every day commits violence against the workers, is the legitimate self-defense of the people. You should read what the revolutinary anarchists wrote. And look at examples of anarchist uprisings, like the Makhnovists or Spanish anarcho-syndicalists

      • comrade-bear@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Still, it's the anarchists view of a better world and of defense, which not necessarily is shared by all workers agree, many of them believe the state is something that defends them, so you are still imposing onto people your will, you can beat around the bush as much as.you want revolutions are authoritarian things, furthermore no anarchist revolutions had any lasting success which corroborates the idea that anarchy is not the most sensible platform for ending cptalism

        • EredYasibu@lemm.ee
          ·
          1 year ago

          The state protects, of course, but not the majority, but the minority, which has the power. This is the very essence of the state, it was made that way on purpose, because capitalists need the power of the minority, not the majority. The goal of socialists is to give power to the majority so that people can have freedom. You can't use a hammer to drill a hole. About failed revolutions - first of all, they took place in difficult conditions and in fact died because of the betrayals of Marxists, secondly, nevertheless, they gave experience and showed that it is quite possible to organize a society without the state and protect it, even in spite of "objective circumstances", which are justified by the Bolsheviks to take power away from the workers. And as Marxists themselves say about socialism when arguing with the right-wingers - airplanes didn't take off the first time either About authoritarianism - if a thief attacks you to rob you by force, and you knock him out, would that be authoritarian? No, it was the thief who behaved authoritarian, who wanted to impose his will on you, and you self-defended to preserve your freedom. I suggest you read this: https://www.anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionH.html#sech4

          • comrade-bear@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            The issue is not just that a society can be organized without the state but one of the main reasons for the socialist state is to prevent the outside capitalist forces from taking back control, and that could have something to do with the lack of lasting anarchist experiences, furthermore the organization of a revolutionary force has issues with some of the anarchists that say that no authority is justified, which makes any sort of army force nearly unsustainable. Furthermore the thief analogy somewhat works but the fact of the matter is that any revolutionary force will impose one view on detriment of others in an authority manner, there is no analogy that makes it less so, the state sucks but how to bring it down and what to do afterwards is a choice, that will be made by the revolutionary force, and that is the authoritatary measure, the thief did wrong I do not deny it, but you are deciding the sentence as well, and unilaterally so. And I think its an inevitable property of revolution, just one that anarchy tends to struggle with.

    • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      Because we hold out some modicum of respect for actual, real anarchists and not just some teenage-minded shopaholics at the supermarket of ideology who found some loophole to larp as being leftists while having zero skin in the game and a perfect vantage point to support western supremacy while believing they have a unlimited license to feel smug.

      • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        I think "teenage-minded" is doing most of the work here. There is no shortage of immature communists out there who also fit the rest of your paragraph as well.

        • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          I don’t know if the solution here is agism/childism/whatever. I’ve met some really stupid kids anarchist or reactionary, but I’ve also met good comrades my age both on here and irl. Yes there is an immaturity in ideology that can correlate with immaturity of mind and body but there are also a lot of stupid adults. Some may go through a radlib phase as a kid and some will be an even more insufferable anarkiddie as an adult. https://srslywrong.com/podcast/265-ageism-misopedy-adult-supremacy-child-liberation-childism-adultism-child-rights-etc/

        • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          Nonsense, there's a barrier to entry to being a communist. There's a massive shortage of us. Not so with anarcho-x kids.

            • Beat_da_Rich@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              Because the anarchist symbol is on more merchandise and is represented more in capitalist media as something "cool" and "punk."

              Anarchism is very much marketed as an ideology to be consumed to divert the working class from approaching theorists that revolutionary movements have leaned on to actually overthrow capitalist regimes. This isn't to say that there aren't valuable anarchist insights, just that objectively anarchist movements have yet to lead a successful revolution that can sustain itself.

            • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Red scare propaganda obviously. If it’s “common knowledge” “socialism doesn’t work” but you see capitalism sucks you want a third way. That way is to reject all states and authority especially socialist states. A true anarchist distrustful of authority would support socialism as positive step away from capitalism, but many don’t question the authority of the red scarers and thus trust them when they say socialism is even worse.

            • UlyssesT
              ·
              edit-2
              2 months ago

              deleted by creator

            • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              As I said above, no barrier to entry. You don't have to read a book. You can deflect away any criticism of the west as "Shur all states are bad!" and then focus all your criticism on AES states while appearing to remain ideologically consistent.

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              *palatable, for clarity

              But I feel like Gramsci's writing on the relative failure of anarchists in Italy has some sort of relevance here.

              https://redsails.org/discorso-agli-anarchici/

              The most basic and unreflective impulse of social rebellion has a palpable connection to what anarchism is, even if many anarchist activists and theorists are much more sophisticated in their ideology than that might imply to you. Anarchism in a broad sense is also very compatible with the empty, abstract inferences that people raised in liberalism are used to approaching political ideology with. In juvenile anarchists, you can for example see this in the similarity between their "I oppose all states", even those that are historically progressive, and Ghandi saying "I oppose all violence" even in response to Jews fighting against Nazis!

              • CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                It's just a slow process of revealing that many are not informed enough, and more importantly, that there are legitimate disagreements to be had that have not been addressed enough beyond discourse and ideological struggle. Most theory is a product of certain perspectives examining specific histories in specific places. But everything is always changing and nothing is truly universal. It's only natural disagreements will be numerous even within perspectives that have similarities. And now days ideology seems reduced down to commodified identities that are developed through outrage and toxic, debatebro discourse so that doesn't really help either.

                If you ask me we need better triangulations and to get more comfortable with pluralistic thinking instead of simply purifying and gatekeeping our ideological group. ML thought deserves to not be reduced to something so static, and it needs more opportunities and creative practitioners for it to become more applicable, and thus more credible in more places. In other words we need reciprocity and continuity with other perspectives as much as we need rigor and integrity within our own methods and ideologies.

        • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          Most Trots I know are the real deal, not just knowingly spoofing. They're usually well meaning, just misled and unable to get past their western indoctrination.

          • relay@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            I don't understand Trots. They don't like the USSR but they seem to be supportive of most other socialist projects other than China.

            Its also wierd that many neocons used to be trots. Do they think that globalization is a way for a world government to occur so that one government can be used to build socialism? IDK

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              It's simple: does the state pose a political threat to the US? Yes? Then believe most of what the State Department says about it, just like they used to with the USSR (and still do retrospectively).

            • LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              Same here. I guess it's a confusing place to be, you feel like you're doing well meaning stuff but because you're ideologically brainwashed and prohibited from making logical dialectical conclusions nothing really makes sense.

    • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      It seems to me that self styled anarchists use the label because it's an easy, safe way of saying you're a bit of a rebel. It has a common, dictionary definition. At least in my country, you could shout that you're an anarchist from the rooftop and never lose your job.

      The same is not true of Maoists, Trots, other kinds of Marxists. Nobody I've ever met claims to be one of those without having read some theory (the 'some' is variable, naturally). Claiming those labels brings heat and everyone knows it. If anything, I know more people who have read lots of Marxist theory who still don't claim the label because they know that it will put their skin in the game and potentially their job on the line.

      Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think anyone would put quotation marks around 'anarchist' when describing or criticising e.g. Kropotkin. To me, it's more of a nod to the fact that 'anarchist' is often used in a meaningless way by people who aren't seeking accuracy.

      They just want you to know that in an ideal world we wouldn't have a government or bosses or crime, etc, and everyone would decide all at the same time to share power and work together and all live happily ever after. Quite different to those who participate in direct action or the Catalan anarchists and Makhnovites of old. Or maybe 'anarchists' would like to cosplay as a violent revolutionary anarchist to achieve their goals but idk. That strikes me as more adventurist than anarchist even if both labels 'fit' according to the common psyche.

      Like I said, as a broad descriptor, it's not a label seeking accuracy as it's been co-opted so many times. It's a label for those who want the aesthetics of being a revolutionary without risking their job or friendships. The quotation marks make it clear that neither real anarchists nor Marxists accept that breadth.

      • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]
        ·
        1 year ago

        The online space for anarchists is so weird to be honest. I organize with a bunch in my daily life and I would peg it at solidly 75% are warm on China and more pissed at their landlord than Putin or whatever. It's extremely jarring going into some online anarchist spaces and having it uniformly be the democratic national convention.

        • lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          75% are warm on China

          Which sounds absolutely surreal online but totally ordinary irl. Turns out that people who reject mass society as a whole don't trust the Washington Post, don't see the world with staunch liberal ideals and don't pretend to know everything about a place they never went to

          • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]
            ·
            1 year ago

            In the US, it's been the ones who are either old punks, or just normal people that gravitate to anarchist organizing, without making it their identity. When I say warm it's not that they're "pro-CCP" it's that they're not knee jerk going china bad, and certainly aren't going out of their way to try to make it a purity test for social interactions.

          • Catradora_Stalinism [she/her, comrade/them]
            ·
            1 year ago

            Maoists have a long history in black liberation movements, it was broken and now has been reduced to anarchist ideology. They are now building up toward it all again.

        • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          I wonder if a lot of it is bot accounts in the employ of the security services. Not all the users, but enough in key positions to shape the narrative. A safe and harmless way of neutralising disaffected youth. And for those who won't be neutralised, a little encouragement to commit a crime that can be 'stopped' or let happen to justify more funding. Harder to do that in Marxist spaces (I'm sure there are examples), as Marxists argue against adventurism/propaganda of the deed/lone-wolfism and argue for organising the masses.

      • Muad'Dibber@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Anarchism has so many varied branches as to almost mean nothing. Like how the hell do pacificist anarchists get along with insurrectionary anarchists who praise assassinations and propaganda of the deed?

        • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          This is what makes me think of it as a synonym for 'bit of a rebel'; it doesn't hint at what type of rebellion the anarchist will go in for.

    • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Because of the mythical existence of "based real life anarchist" as opposed to the "terminally online anarkiddies".

      Idk if those exist, irl anarchists i know or i know of in Poland are and always were without exception anticommunists.

        • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          I've run into a number of Greek anarchists whose complaints of the USSR boiled down to "Stalin didn't send enough weapons or troops and abandoned us"

          • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Easy to understand why they'd be pissed about that. Sounds like the same idea as the "Stalin shouldn't have stopped at Berlin" meme but with the opposite sentiment than it's usually used with.

          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            Also the USSR refused to openly support Spanish anarchists during the Spanish civil war.

            They just let them get eaten alive slowly by the fascists.

            • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              The USSR was also sending weapons to the larger and more effective republicans. It was one of the only countries to send arms to the antifascist forces, if not the only.

              • Nematodes [he/him]
                ·
                1 year ago

                Yes but they did so very limitedly and did not publically support them. France also supported them but only in secret and not during the end of the civil war.

                The USSR, along with every other government, chose to remain relavitivly silent when their support ( which was repeatedly asked for ) could have opened the door to greater acceptance by other world powers.

                You see that is the anarchist critique of the USSR and communism in general. That the structure of communism still requires the state. And thus they will be similar to capitalist regimes in function & form.

                During the Spanish civil war the USSR chose to do the same thing as the US and Britton for the same reasons. To turn their backs on a legitimate left government fighting reactionary fascist rebels. Simply because it would cost to much. Or would make them vulnerable to facists attack.

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’ve met decent principled anarchists. They’re few and far between considering it’s often just a phase identity and they’ll go back to lib later. But there are decent ones and I wouldn’t expect you to find them in Poland (or much of the west).

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Because we don't want to be sectarian and have seen at least two or three good anarchists (like our comrade nakoichi), so we are simply talking about the ultras and other shitheads who call themselves anarchists while avoiding the question of if there is a fundamental problem with anarchism that is substantially connected to those assholes appropriating it.

      Also you don't need to put scarequotes on a "Trot" you are insulting because calling them a Trot is a much graver insult. Sectarianism as an ideology in itself deserves no respect.

        • GarbageShoot [he/him]
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I mean, I think it also helps keep the anarchists in check about MLs so they don't do the "red fash" routine.

          Opinion is split on Trots, e.g. the aforementioned comrade nakoichi is weirdly protective of them (I like him one-sidedly, but he is wrong about that and I will post pika-pickaxe to the fucking grave) and has seemingly removed many of my comments about them.

          And, like, you can easily get fighting between Maoists and MLs, but there again the non-sectarian rule is doing what it should for the most part. Maybe it isn't strong enough and people are still too hard on Maoists, idk. It's especially a problem there because they need to deal with the legacy of the fucking Gonzalites calling themselves Maoists.

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          A rule against sectarianism doesn't ban substitive critiques, it bans excessive dunking and precludes stuff like mods removing comments on sectarian grounds (as you occasionally see comments removed for being liberal or reactionary).

          The trick, as always, is in how it's enforced.

    • CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      We do it for the "left" because some of us like to gatekeep it so it stays pure even though it's been mostly shit. Anti-capitalism is treated as sacred and anything that soils it is just a bad actor or someone corrupted by propaganda. It is dogma.

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Fair, it’s a low bar to be anti-capitalist and we can’t deny people’s claim to it just because they suck otherwise. However, the way we use “so called” and the like makes sense because these people don’t understand the implications of adopting a label or take the time to read the theory. Or maybe I’m wrong, if enough people use different and convoluted definitions of anarchism, especially if this “no gods, no bedtimes, no reading” form predominates, who are we to deny their claim to anarchy? If they are anarchists and the majority such I’d be more offended associating with these petite bourgeois fools as some of our comrades do than from people dunking on these “Anarkiddies.”

        • CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          No you are right. Any ideology is going to have a lot of depth and width and so its not going to be easy to just be an "anarchist," or anything, by just consuming platitudes. This is something the post modernists and others try to grapple with. It is very important for understanding ideology and its difficulties, but it is also part of the failures of the left, anarchist or not, that are good to acknowledge.

          • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Yeah, anyone can read memes but not everyone is going to read theory or do praxis. Someone’s ideology shows in what they do irl, not what they say they believe online.

  • Sinister [none/use name, comrade/them]B
    ·
    1 year ago

    Anarchism and social justice language have and are heavily used by the bourgeoisie to scatter and depower radical social movements.

    The eager embrace of anarchism by westerners and the cia “I am a poc with anxiety” recruiter, should be the clear indictment of the current absolute subservience of those ideas to the status qou.

  • The Free Penguin@lemmygrad.ml
    ·
    1 year ago

    "Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is!" Karl Marx's sugar daddy Frederick Engels

  • ButtigiegMineralMap@lemmygrad.ml
    ·
    1 year ago

    A new Hunger Games movie is dropping next month, I need a few weeks of Libs to stop being so genocidal so I can mentally prepare myself for all the comparisons of (insert X country that libs hate here) and Panem from Hunger Games.

  • Nematodes [he/him]
    ·
    1 year ago

    So fucking tired of this. Y'all sound just like the whiney people on 196 trying to get rid of tankies.

    " they are just a bunch of teenagers online" "I never met one in real life"

    When I am allowed to be a "real" Anarchist?

    Where's the fucking line? When I dont critize MLs? I'm an anarchist online and in the streets. And I'm honestly so tired of having to come to the only real leftist community on Lemmy and still have to watch y'all bash anarchy with the same effort libs bash commies.

    I have problems with authority. And problems with the ideas of Marx. And the implemntation of communism throughout the life the USSR. Specifically the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the use of centralized authority.

    Im anti-capitalist, I'm anti-police and pro prison abolition. But I'm willing to work with other leftist toward the bigger issues. Like Palestine.

    When are anarchist going to be accepted in this community?

    Y'all honestly make me so sad. I go to Lemmy.world I gotta read people licking Israel boot. I come here I got to watch y'all punch down on anarchy.

    Yall are a fuckin disappointment.

    • ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      A collection of Marxist communities, for memes, learning, news, discussion, media, or anything you like

      From our sidebar. We arent hexbear, we dont really believe in left unity like them. You’re welcome to participate, and you won’t get dunked on as an “anarkiddy” if you make serious comments arguing for anarchism here, but yes you will see a lot of venting about anarchists, I would suggest blocking lemmygrad comms if you dont want to see that.

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      You are plainly taking this in bad faith, they don't mean anarchists who do support revolution and they could hardly be more clear in that fact. Try rereading once before denouncing an entire instance of fellow communists.

      I am mildly curious why, if it hypothetically was attacking anarchism in general, that would be "punching down".

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        I am mildly curious why, if it hypothetically was attacking anarchism in general, that would be "punching down".

        I say punching down because the the majority of active leftists communities on Lemmy are dominated by MLs and other commies. & I see a lot of general hate towards anarchists. which is apparently a much smaller of a group.

          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            You are plainly taking this in bad faith, they don't mean anarchists who do support revolution and they could hardly be more clear in that fact. Try rereading once before denouncing an entire instance of fellow communists.

            I've stated this in other comments:

            These kinds of posts are the only ones I see regarding anarchy. Only calling them "anarchkiddiez" or libs.

            Its not clear to a person who is newer here that there is a difference. And Further I know from experiance many people In the community really do think anarchist are fake leftist.....

            Frankly, its gets old going from Lemmy world seeing communist bashing just to come here and see anarchist bashing.

            It makes me feel like I am not welcome any where on Lemmy.

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Remember this is a lemmygrad and not hexbear post. Stick to hexbear if you're sensitive about it, or block the leftist infighting comm and you'll see much less from lemmygrad about it.

              And Further I know from experiance many people In the community really do think anarchist are fake leftist.....

              People typically understand that criticizing anarchism more generally requires a more substantial critique, and plenty are willing to offer it and have done so already.

              • Nematodes [he/him]
                ·
                1 year ago

                plenty are willing to offer it and have done so already.

                I'm sure your right but mostly I just see anarchist bashing.

                Maybe you can link some post with earnest anarchist critques? That's really the reason I'm here to see real critiques of anarchy so I can learn more.

                • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Elsewhere in this very thread there are links to a bunch of literature like Gramsci. Try even just reading what the other users who are talking to each other and not you say.

                  Perhaps also try reading Lenin. Both cases are just easy examples within the many things each wrote.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      The reality is there are a lot of usufferable anarchists (especially online) who refuse to engage with real theory or history. I have all respect for people like you who critically support AES but maintain a different ideology. I and some others on here do try to make clear the difference between pop anarchists who hate China because they’re told to despite “being against all authority” and your time. Yes, some here go too far with it, and I do not agree, but I see where they are coming from.

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        I appreciate your comment.

        The reality is there are a lot of usufferable anarchists (especially online) who refuse to engage with real theory or history.

        I get that. I really do. Ive seen some of this myself. And I can understand and appreciate people calling them out. But I Just feel that they are too often becoming the complete face of anarchy on leftist Lemmy communities.

        Yes, some here go too far with it, and I do not agree, but I see where they are coming from.I

        I would also like to point out, that this same thing that happens on Lemmy dot world. But for commies.

        Libs go and find the least educated, loudest idiot calling themselves a communists and take screen shots too post on tankiejerk.

        Its really just cheap shots IMO.

    • lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      Where’s the fucking line? When I dont critize MLs?

      Are the MLs currently undermining your commune project or your dual power building? If yes then actually yeah come criticise them that would be super interesting for us.

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        No the projects that I'm apart of are often with people who are very supportive of anarchy. Or are anarchists themselves. I really only see the anarchy bashing when I come here......

        • lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          So if we're talking about theory let's agree to disagree, because you'll never "convert" anyone to anachism here and we'll never convert you either

          Which means that for you it's not very interesting to come and criticise ML ideology, I suggest you formulate your criticism as questions. Like "why do you think the USSR went down this road, do you think it's ideal?" We will respond happily

          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            for you it's not very interesting to come and criticise ML ideology, I suggest you formulate your criticism as questions.

            I'm not here to critize ML, really. I just don't want to constantly see anarchists being bashed.

            I'm here to learn. But I'm not gonna stick around just to see the same weak insults be thrown around. Its becoming apparent that this community doesn't really care tho.

            • lil_tank@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              I understand your frustration. As multiple comments pointed out, you shouldn't take that bashing for yourself. We're talking about some undetermined online accounts who tag themselves as anarchists, and clearly you're not from that crowd.

    • UlyssesT
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      2 months ago

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      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        I'm aware of my own post is this some sort of got cha?

        when the weather became less fair.

        Are you talking about when y'all openly bash anarchist? Calling them libs?

        Yeah I'm not really cool with that.

        Your comment has no real critique of my ideology. Just shows that isn't room here for anarachist of any kind.

          • UlyssesT
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            2 months ago

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            • Nematodes [he/him]
              ·
              1 year ago

              Y'all aren't critizing idoleogy y'all are just calling me a lib or an angry teenager...

              This comment once again has no real critique. Am I not allowed to complain?

              • UlyssesT
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                2 months ago

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                • Alaskaball [comrade/them]A
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  What anarchist books have you read that you thought were good

                  Sarcastically: I'm a bit of an expert on anarchism you see. I once read a meme on r/complete@narchy back in the day

          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            I can deal with post critizing anarchy. I'm just not seeing that. Alls I see are post calling anarchist fake. Or calling them libs. Or calling them angry teenagers.

            Soo what it sounds like is there isn't room for anarchist on lemmygrad? Are you willing to share with me some critiques of anarchism that are not based in literal name calling?

            Cuz I will read, but I'm not gonna stick around and get called a lib over and over again.

            • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              We are calling fake anarchists fake. No one said anarchists as a whole were fake. Why are you taking this personally. All the way from the title (self styled “anarchists”) it should’ve been clear it was criticizing a specific type of person laying false claim to the ideology of anarchism, not the whole.

              • Nematodes [he/him]
                ·
                1 year ago

                OK but these are the only posts I see on here regarding anarchy. I see pretty Much "anarkiddys" And things like "anarchist just wanna be petty Bourgeoisie". Or memes just talking trash.

                (self styled “anarchists”) it should’ve been clear

                This alone doesn't convey that there are accept able forms of anarchy on this community. Its just bashing.

                • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  No it doesn’t, I don’t know why you interpret it that way. Suggesting someone we don’t like has illegitimate claim to an ideology suggests someone we like has legitimate claim to it. Imagine Alex Jones says “these “conservatives” in the White House are evil,” it should be clear he likes conservatism but thinks neocons have an illegitimate claim to it.

              • Nematodes [he/him]
                ·
                1 year ago

                I'm not responding to you to argue with you, I'm trying to help you have a less frustrating lemmy experience.

                I see. Thanks.

        • UlyssesT
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          2 months ago

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          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            My critique of this community is there no room for anarchist here of any kind.

            Which i stated above.

            • UlyssesT
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              2 months ago

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            • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              I'm fairly sure there are several well respected anarchists on Lemmygrad.

              You seem to be making a judgement based on one post, which you seem to have interpreted to mean something very different to what I thought it was saying. It comes off a little bit wrecker tbh, considering the 'anarchist' in the op is clearly qualified.

              If you did want an ML critique of anarchism, you could try: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Library:Anarchism_or_socialism%3F

        • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          We’re calling libs who call themselves “anarchists” libs. Most of us have not condemned all anarchists.

        • Catradora_Stalinism [she/her, comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Are you talking about when y'all openly bash anarchist? Calling them libs?

          every ideology will have a reactionary section that should be done away with, this is especially true for imperial core organizations

    • qwename@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      I will paste this old comment of mine to see what real anarchists like yourself think about it, I may have conflated anarchists with anti-authoritarians, so correct me if I'm wrong:

      Anti-authoritarians have no future, one either supports an existing authority or tries to become a new authority. Everyone can have a say in a democracy, but when it comes down to decision, whether through majority vote or expert opinion or other methods, the decision then becomes authority.

      Even if someone claims to hate all forms of authority, this person will become the authority on “hating authority” if a following is gained. That’s how anarchists are doomed for failure.

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        I will gladly comment on this.

        Anarchist are anti-hierarchy. Authority is usually hierarchically designed and implemented. And thus we as anarchists condem it.

        This statement ignores other forms of power. Like non-hierarchical power structures. Mutual aid groups and community self defense. These and many other forms of direct action do not require authority or hierarchy to be powerful.

        We can be powerful, productive and non-hierarchical. We can have groups of people working together solving problems without bosses, masters, cops etc.

        • qwename@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          Are rules required for anarchism to function, and if they are, can these rules be viewed as an abstract authority commanding the anarchist community?

        • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          How does commumity self defense not require authority? They're certainly imposing their authority on whatever they're defending themselves from.

          • enthusiasticamoeba@lemmy.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Someone who is attacking you is attempting to enforce a hierarchy/authority on you. Defending yourself is rejecting that hierarchy/authority. If you were to attack back, then I would say you were trying to impose your authority on another. But self defense alone only brings one back to equal footing, where neither party has authority over the other.

            • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              That is a good point. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here links On Authority to try and debunk you, but (and this is an unpopular opinion on this instance) it's a garbage argument that projects the fallacy Engles is making onto the anti authoritarians, namely using a definition of authority different from the one anyone actually cares about. It is Engles who "...think[s] that when [he has] changed the names of things [he has] changed the things themselves".

            • Catradora_Stalinism [she/her, comrade/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              That is with your own authority though. A gun shooting someone is political power being thrust against another. And Anarchism doesn't establish itself in a vacuum, you usually have to overthrow the other established order.

              Its all authority, just renamed

      • booty [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Even if someone claims to hate all forms of authority

        this is not what anarchists claim

        read theory, then come back with a coherent comment

        • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          1 year ago

          It actually is what a lot of anarchists claim, those who have not read theory at least. I will make no generalizations about all anarchists especially without reading the specific theory, but there is a certain type of the online “anarkiddie” which I’ve seen many times.

          • booty [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            this is like judging MLs by random fascist youtube commenters who think stalin killed 100 bajillion people and that was based

            • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              More like judging all USian MLs by patsocs who are sadly way too common. Settlers don’t want to lose the land they stole even if it’s necessary like anarkiddies don’t want to give up their petty bourgeois lifestyle to do praxis. Also, similarly as these anarchists don’t question the anti-communism programmed into them, patsocs don’t question myths about “American greatness” or that fast food workers and natives are worthless.

    • davel [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      The post was about “Self-styled ‘anarchists’”, as opposed to actual anarchists, and it seems you’re putting yourself in that category and then complaining that OP put you there.

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        Maybe. But there way too much of this kind of rhetoric on the site for me to look at this and say "oh he's not talking about me, I'm one of the good ones"

        If I felt like there was more differentiation between what was an "acceptable" anarchist and just libs with the "anarchy" label. That would be one thing. But I don't see people saying anarchy is OK.

        Just mostly people bashing anarchists.....

        • EmmaGoldman [she/her, comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          You have entered a Marxist community, not an anarchist community. Members of this community are expressing their frustration with the ever-growing swaths of anticommunist and antirevolutionary liberals who describe themselves as anarchists, but who have little to no actual engagement with anarchist ideology. They have expressed that this frustration is derived from these people's refusal to read theory and to educate themselves on the history of anarchism. They are not criticising anarchist ideology, they are criticising people who claim they are anarchists but refuse to actually learn anything about anarchism.

          You are making broad, sweeping statements condemning the Marxists in this community for their beliefs, and seem to be reading their frustrations as personal attacks and attacks on anarchism. Perhaps you should re-examine your standpoint here and go read some elementary anarchist and leftist theory. Here are some recommendations:

          Anarchism and Other Essays by Emma Goldman

          Principles of Communism by Friedrich Engels

          An Anarchist Programme by Errico Malatesta

          The Conquest of Bread by Pyotr Kropotkin

          Any of Antonio Gramsci's writings

          • PaulSmackage [he/him, comrade/them]
            ·
            1 year ago

            These are all good recs (especially gramsci-heh), but please, don't tell me to Google Murray Bookchin. It's been ten years.

            I'm so tired.

              • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                Damn, just agreeing with all the cringiest people. I read the section of his book (post scarcity anarchism) called “listen Marxist” and was hoping there would be something worth listening. Unfortunately, all he says is basically Marxism’s old so we should ignore it and also evil vanguardists stole credit for the revolution and did evil stuff instead of pressing the communism button. I always hope to find something interesting to think about in anti-communist arguments, but they rarely say anything new.

              • UlyssesT
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                2 months ago

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            • EmmaGoldman [she/her, comrade/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              I'm not telling you or people in general to read theory, I'm telling chucklehead over there to read some, because based on his posting I sincerely doubt he ever has. Dude claimed he was opening his anticommunism blinders less than two weeks ago, then fell ass-backwards into lemmygrad's infighting community and decided to go to war using a balloon sword.

        • UlyssesT
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          2 months ago

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    • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      1 year ago

      You call yourself leftist and yet have problems with the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat? Jesus fuck dude. You are just a liberal. You shouldn’t even pretend to not be

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Specifically the dictatorship of the proletariat,

      Can you tell me what you think this means without looking it up to have the "correct" answer?

    • HornyOnMain
      ·
      1 year ago

      I agree with you but I'm too tired to properly articulate it right now (though be aware that this is a lemmygrad thread, and they don't have anti sectarian rules like hexbear does)

      • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        There’s a place for anarchist visitors on Lemmygrad, but note we are in the leftist infighting community so that would explain why hating on anarchists is allowed.

      • ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        we kind of do (have an anti-sectarian rule), it's just a stricter definition (i.e. it definitely doesn't apply to anarchists and probably not trots/MLM). Think about it this way, we MLs have very few places to congregate in the english speaking side of the internet, so my feeling is that we're pretty protective of it. Like ffs, before we were federated with hexbear we were alone in the jihad against the libs in the lemmyverse, the only other "leftists" servers that I know of (midwest and dbzero) defederated us, that's part of why we're so hostile towards anarchists imo (apart from ideological differences since we're an ML instance).

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        1 year ago

        I appreciate it. I don't mind people having discourse with me. I'm just tired of being called:

        A lib An angry teenager. An anarkiddie

        Etc.

    • Grimble [he/him,they/them]
      ·
      1 year ago

      Oh no guys, hear that? They're packing their stuff and leaving! Fuck this is a disaster, the site's ruined. I might as well quit too. We should've been nicer to hormonal 16-year-olds who scold us

      • Nematodes [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        We should've been nicer to hormonal 16-year-olds who scold us

        And there is it.

        You sound like the people I played halo 1 with. Lmao.

        Did you also bang my mom last night?

          • Nematodes [he/him]
            ·
            1 year ago

            You want another useless chain of comments where we just throw catty insults at each other for hours, over and over on whats meant to be a politics forum

            Lol realize y ou are the one doing this. I didn't come in here calling you 16 years old.

            You and about 75% of the people on seem incapable of any actual discourse.

            Call me a lib and be done with it.