Nah, if you vote for fascists, you're a fascist, not a centrist. I'm a centrist and I've never voted for fascists, nor for anyone else seeking to abolish democratic rule (looking at no one in particular 🙂).
Do you really maintain the ilusion that any American if asked to pick the two most competent people to run the country would have selected Joe Biden or Donald Trump? Do you feel that the elected representatives you have are acting in accordance with the will of the American people? Mike Johnson the newly elected speaker of the house is a known election denier. I would say he's someone who seeks to abolish democratic rule who, while you didn't vote for him, got into power anyway.
So America is being run by a select group of elites that the people don't want doing things that they don't like. In fact a group of 17th century slave owners did not set up the best form of government because they liked freedom so much but instead enshrined a system to guarantee and preserve their own material interests. You sneer at the those who choose not to imitate you because you've been indoctrinated to the belief that non western savages couldn't possibly come up with anything better. You are wrong (looking directly at you with undisguised contempt).
I don't know what gave you the impression that I am an American, but I am not. And honestly, I wouldn't call the US a model democracy, it definitely has markings of an oligarchy.
(looking at you with confusion)
How is that a counterexample?
The people who voted for Hitler were Nazis, my point still stands.
Hindenburg was the centrist choice at the time, yes. However, he wasn't a centrist, but a rightist (is that a word?). He was much more afraid of the Commies than of the Nazis.
This is what led to him later betraying the people that elected him by making Hitler chancellor, giving power to exactly the one person his voters so desperately tried to keep out of it.
Hindenburg was the centrist choice at the time, yes. However, he wasn’t a centrist
Woah, woah, woah. Is he a centrist or not? I think you’re just retroactively labeling him a “rightist” because he let the Nazis gain power, despite being elected on the premise that he was opposed to them.
There’s a reason people here say that liberalism is the moderate wing of fascism, and it’s that when it really matters, liberals will choose the fascists over anything remotely resembling communism time and again.
Hindenburg was an Aristocrat, highly conservative and pretty libertarian. He disapproved of the Nazis, but resented communists. In any other context, you wouldn't even consider calling him a centrist, only in the previously mentioned election could he seem as one, with the other two candidates being a communist and a nazi. Had there also been a social democrat candidate, thats who I'd call the closest thing to a centrist. Such a candidate would not have cooperated with the Nazis any more than with the commies, maybe it would have worked out. We'll never know.
So I guess the main thing I'm disagreeing with you on is, that I don't consider libertarians to be centrists. In my eyes they too are extremists, maybe not quite as overtly dangerous as Nazis and Commies, but definitaly just as much a threat to democracy and society.
Maybe. I guess the problem is that the word “centrist” in and of itself is irredeemably vague.
What is a centrist? Someone who wants to keep things exactly as they are? That’s a conservative.
The “median” political position of the Overton window? In the USSR or China, a “centrist” position would be some kind of Marxist position.
Can we please just use clearer words? You want to talk about social democrats? Fine, do that (I wish they weren’t our “far left” in the US). Plenty of comrades can give a great discussion about them (they at least pretend to care, although they unfortunately can align with the fascists too much). But do you consider a social democrat to be the meaning of “centrist” in contemporary German politics?
I agree that the term is pretty vague. I use it mainly as the opposite of the term "extremist". And that's kinda the point i think, it does not clearly define a set of political opinions, but rather describes any moderate position with a general willingness to compromise and cooperate, a commitment to democracy, as well as condemnation of political violence.
So while in contemporary German politics, I wouldn't equate social democrats with centrists, I would say that they are the most centrist party currently in parliament.
I absolutely don't mind using other terminology, but I do believe that the term "centrist" can be useful sometimes. And after all, this post being about centrists is the reason we are talking about the term in the first place.
Ok, I agree that politicians are often corrupt and don't necessarily act in the interest of the people, but what does this have to do with centrism?
Anyway, if you wanna get rid of politicians, what do you propose?
Im all for some kind of direct democracy, in the age of the internet this isn't even unrealistic anymore. Proposals could be made and voted on just like Lemmy posts. Or if we wanna stick with elected officials, we might implement some real time election system, where instead of voting every few years, you could just register your vote in a monthly poll on any device with internet access (of course this would require everyone to have internet access at least once a month)
You have pretty wild ideas what a centrist is, I'll go through the panels individually:
i guess this one is accurate, in my eyes the issue is not that nazis say what they think, but rather that they think what they think. If anything it is better if you know someone to be a nazi, rather then them hiding among the population. The way to combat extremism shouldn't be to prohibit extremist thoughts, but a good system of education that highlights the atrocities commited by extremist governments in the past (and present).
Centrism does NOT mean favoring blind compromises between any two sides. In this panel you have extremists on the left and centrists on the right. Of course I would side with the people on the right, human rights apply to all humans.
Advocating for wars is an inherently extremist thing, its the culmination of refusing to compromise , and to deny other humans the right to live. Which doesn't mean I am a pacifist. It can't be right to just surrender to any aggressor.
The idea that centrsist are apolitical is just absurd. I hold many opinions, even on topics that don't immediately affect me. However, as a centrist I advocate for democracy. Its not perfect, humans are ultimately slightly smarter chimpanzees in my eyes. But as JFK once said: "Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, be we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in."
Hm, I don't think we mean the same thing when we talk about centrism. I don't constantly look to the political left and right, find the middle and make that my opinion, honestly I doubt anyone does that.
Instead, my general stance could probably more fittingly be summed up like this:
As humans we always feel that our opinion is right and more valid than that of anyone disagreeing.
I accept that my opinions might be wrong, regardless of how I feel about them. And I believe that the more people disagree with me, the more likely I am to be wrong. It follows that forcing my will on everyone else is not the right way and that instead it would be best to find the solution that the most people can agree on.
Of course, humans are ultimatley only slightly smarter chimpanzees, so this does NOT guarentee we actually agree on the best solution, but its our best bet. What would be ideal would be some higher, benevolent intelligence ruling over us, just like a parent would. But that isn't going to be Hitler, Stalin or any other human that decides that they know better than anyone else what society needs.
Also, I don't really get your point about feeling superior. I never said that my opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, quite the contrary. If anything, thats more the vibe I'm getting from your response.
At least I still take part in political discurse. I tried explaining/defending my stance. You aren't intersted in adressing any points I make, you just insult me as a person instead. And somehow I am the one with a superiority complex.
Nah, if you vote for fascists, you're a fascist, not a centrist. I'm a centrist and I've never voted for fascists, nor for anyone else seeking to abolish democratic rule (looking at no one in particular 🙂).
Solid bit
I'm sad cuz my bit isn't good and people only laugh cuz I caught a lib
Federation is priceless
Go spend your time telling oppressed people they should respect the rules imposed by their oppressors.
Shut the fuck up liberal
Death to America
Do you really maintain the ilusion that any American if asked to pick the two most competent people to run the country would have selected Joe Biden or Donald Trump? Do you feel that the elected representatives you have are acting in accordance with the will of the American people? Mike Johnson the newly elected speaker of the house is a known election denier. I would say he's someone who seeks to abolish democratic rule who, while you didn't vote for him, got into power anyway.
So America is being run by a select group of elites that the people don't want doing things that they don't like. In fact a group of 17th century slave owners did not set up the best form of government because they liked freedom so much but instead enshrined a system to guarantee and preserve their own material interests. You sneer at the those who choose not to imitate you because you've been indoctrinated to the belief that non western savages couldn't possibly come up with anything better. You are wrong (looking directly at you with undisguised contempt).
I don't know what gave you the impression that I am an American, but I am not. And honestly, I wouldn't call the US a model democracy, it definitely has markings of an oligarchy. (looking at you with confusion)
Looks like you're German from a brief glance at your comment history?
The 1932 elections were such a perfect counterexample to your point.
Ironically enough, the 1932 presidential election was the last direct presidential election y'all had, and the Nazi Party lost the election.
How is that a counterexample? The people who voted for Hitler were Nazis, my point still stands. Hindenburg was the centrist choice at the time, yes. However, he wasn't a centrist, but a rightist (is that a word?). He was much more afraid of the Commies than of the Nazis. This is what led to him later betraying the people that elected him by making Hitler chancellor, giving power to exactly the one person his voters so desperately tried to keep out of it.
Woah, woah, woah. Is he a centrist or not? I think you’re just retroactively labeling him a “rightist” because he let the Nazis gain power, despite being elected on the premise that he was opposed to them.
There’s a reason people here say that liberalism is the moderate wing of fascism, and it’s that when it really matters, liberals will choose the fascists over anything remotely resembling communism time and again.
Hindenburg was an Aristocrat, highly conservative and pretty libertarian. He disapproved of the Nazis, but resented communists. In any other context, you wouldn't even consider calling him a centrist, only in the previously mentioned election could he seem as one, with the other two candidates being a communist and a nazi. Had there also been a social democrat candidate, thats who I'd call the closest thing to a centrist. Such a candidate would not have cooperated with the Nazis any more than with the commies, maybe it would have worked out. We'll never know.
So I guess the main thing I'm disagreeing with you on is, that I don't consider libertarians to be centrists. In my eyes they too are extremists, maybe not quite as overtly dangerous as Nazis and Commies, but definitaly just as much a threat to democracy and society.
Maybe. I guess the problem is that the word “centrist” in and of itself is irredeemably vague.
What is a centrist? Someone who wants to keep things exactly as they are? That’s a conservative.
The “median” political position of the Overton window? In the USSR or China, a “centrist” position would be some kind of Marxist position.
Can we please just use clearer words? You want to talk about social democrats? Fine, do that (I wish they weren’t our “far left” in the US). Plenty of comrades can give a great discussion about them (they at least pretend to care, although they unfortunately can align with the fascists too much). But do you consider a social democrat to be the meaning of “centrist” in contemporary German politics?
I agree that the term is pretty vague. I use it mainly as the opposite of the term "extremist". And that's kinda the point i think, it does not clearly define a set of political opinions, but rather describes any moderate position with a general willingness to compromise and cooperate, a commitment to democracy, as well as condemnation of political violence.
So while in contemporary German politics, I wouldn't equate social democrats with centrists, I would say that they are the most centrist party currently in parliament.
I absolutely don't mind using other terminology, but I do believe that the term "centrist" can be useful sometimes. And after all, this post being about centrists is the reason we are talking about the term in the first place.
I'm sorry, repeat my statement and insert your own shitty politicians. I shouldn't have assumed
Ok, I agree that politicians are often corrupt and don't necessarily act in the interest of the people, but what does this have to do with centrism?
Anyway, if you wanna get rid of politicians, what do you propose?
Im all for some kind of direct democracy, in the age of the internet this isn't even unrealistic anymore. Proposals could be made and voted on just like Lemmy posts. Or if we wanna stick with elected officials, we might implement some real time election system, where instead of voting every few years, you could just register your vote in a monthly poll on any device with internet access (of course this would require everyone to have internet access at least once a month)
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You have pretty wild ideas what a centrist is, I'll go through the panels individually:
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Hm, I don't think we mean the same thing when we talk about centrism. I don't constantly look to the political left and right, find the middle and make that my opinion, honestly I doubt anyone does that. Instead, my general stance could probably more fittingly be summed up like this: As humans we always feel that our opinion is right and more valid than that of anyone disagreeing. I accept that my opinions might be wrong, regardless of how I feel about them. And I believe that the more people disagree with me, the more likely I am to be wrong. It follows that forcing my will on everyone else is not the right way and that instead it would be best to find the solution that the most people can agree on.
Of course, humans are ultimatley only slightly smarter chimpanzees, so this does NOT guarentee we actually agree on the best solution, but its our best bet. What would be ideal would be some higher, benevolent intelligence ruling over us, just like a parent would. But that isn't going to be Hitler, Stalin or any other human that decides that they know better than anyone else what society needs.
Also, I don't really get your point about feeling superior. I never said that my opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, quite the contrary. If anything, thats more the vibe I'm getting from your response.
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At least I still take part in political discurse. I tried explaining/defending my stance. You aren't intersted in adressing any points I make, you just insult me as a person instead. And somehow I am the one with a superiority complex.
Centrist positions enable fascism. Pick a side coward.
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*aside from the millions of people in prison who are in fact surrounded by walls
When you're shook by what you see in the mirror
oppa gangnam style