Good. Now Trump can appoint someone. The libs won't have any supreme court seats to shame people over to vote Biden over, Biden will hopefully tank and increasing the liberals will realize the institutional processes have failed them and they can either accept what comes as a result and lie down and take it or accept the system needs changes.
The sooner you realize America is fucked and has been fucked for a while court or no court the sooner you accept these things as necessary to awake the sleepy liberals from their lazy stupor. Only once they've accepted the institutions are lost, that there is nothing sacred left to defend. Then we can see real change. Maybe not revolutionary but certainly we'll be seeing new comrades and maybe you lesser evilism folks might even get an angry enough coalition to get that vaunted harm reduction you're always on about.
How is it wishful thinking? Meaningless accusation given how many people sitting on this very website were liberals until Trump broke their brains when he was elected. It works. Liberal trust in institutions has been weakened by Trump's term. Turning the supreme court completely against them due to what they see as an illegitimately elected president while further shatter their belief in the institutions and America itself. Yes it won't work for all of them obviously but it may get enough thinking. They won't be able to run from the horrors now, they won't be able to put the Trump administration away and pretend all is back to normal and they're safe with their Obama body pillow.
America must be weakened internally. Furthering the splits, furthering the antagonisms, the contradictions will accomplish this.
Biden won't tank because of this shit, he'd increase his election chances. This is the WORST THING that could fucking happen to Trump's chances right now. They appoint a justice, there's no incentive to drive his dipshits to the polls, but the Dems have every reason to try to change the way the Supreme Court works and sweep the Senate and the Presidency.
I get you really want this to happen but you have blinders on.
Also the kind of "good, let things get a lot worse so the libs see how bad it is" takes always kinda scare me. Like, please realise that it's always the lower wage working class that disproportionately bare the brunt of this shit
Well I think what we can do is try and point out those contradictions in a way that resonates with the working class that is most affected by them. And believe me, this excellerationist stuff does not resonate. And, like you say organise community support. Show people that an alternative exists and is materially better for them. I think we should at least try to project a hopeful image of the future we want and try to make people believe that more is possible
I get what you mean. I guess the problem I have is more of a nuance thing. I'd like to see us leftists jumping on this as an opertunity to build more community and class consciousness. Instead what I see a lot (I'm not accusing you of this) of then let them burn it all down as we stand, watch and laugh. So yes, I too want to see the Liberal institutions crumble. But the reason why is because I feel like they are devoid of real humanity. So what I would hope to see is us finally claiming the Moral high ground we're entitled to because our politics actually materially supports morality and justice, you know?
Uh I hate to tell you this but uh communists in America are in no way a significant enough force to accelerate or otherwise change how things are going.
And how do you think you are going to get a socialist movement in America? The most privileged, propagandized to center of the imperial core? I mean fuck don't make me laugh. You think you'll do it by gradually attacking liberals while Biden's in office? Trump getting elected did more to grow the left than the last 20 years of politics as normal. I won't lie, Bernie was an essential ingredient in that but he's no longer necessary.
Anyways, hell for who? It's already hell for people of color, for women in red states, and for the billions of people worldwide under the US/NATO/Western imperialist boot. You are in the belly of the beast. Try telling Syrians or Libyans or Yemenis or Iraqis that things aren't hell or that this is going to make you sad, tell the mothers of the dead children that you're super worried about this. You're the delusional one if you think business as normal with liberals plodding along ignorantly, half asleep because of Biden and intact institutions they can believe in is going to magically lead to better conditions for growth of socialism in the US or better conditions for people in the US or globally. The US is in decay, it is getting violent. You have Cold War 2.0, Red Scare 3.0 on your hands, the Dems are all on board, lets all attack China, stop the communist party of China, etc. The crazed Trump people? They aren't going back in the box because a Democrat wins. Qanon nutters? They're not going back in the box because a Democrat wins. The Democrats are going to continue to compromise. You need big things to shock the people awake, to get the liberals to pay attention and understand this is not just a Trump thing, that orange man going away will not fix things.
But this website is full of privileged, white Americans. So I am not surprised.
And again as I've said before, if you think the Supreme Court and control of it is going to have any kind of role in whether full blown fascism unfurls here you are ignorant and need to read more. That's incredibly smooth-brained. What it is important as, is a symbol. And the more people who reject its legitimacy within the US the better. The more people who see the US government as illegitimate the better. There is a fairly decent chance we see a second civil war, a balkanization or attempt at it in the coming decades.
Embrace the fear. You can flee if you want but if you're not fleeing don't act like you're going to influence what happens next, don't sit on the edge of your seat hoping bourgeois pawn with a D next to their name will save you, they won't! Give up the liberal breathlessness at the precious liberal institutions being corrupted. You'll feel better mentally.
To quote Gramsci "The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters".
I'm not saying you have to be happy about it. And some fear is understandable, there are bad times ahead but there would have been if she'd lived another 20 years. But try and understand the larger breakdown of capitalism, the crisis occurring right now and what all that means and what we need to happen to punch through the propaganda.
I can only imagine. Just know that there are a lot of us that care about you and will fight to protect your rights as a human being. We're here for you, comrade!
Judicial appointments are a far greater motivation for conservatives than liberals. “Evil activist judges” is a talking point drilled into their heads for decades, having deep resentment over Roe v Wade and Obergefell. There just isn’t the same energetic resentment in Democrats, they’re not nearly as attuned to the importance of judicial appointments. So the winning move is for the GOP to delay the nomination until after the election to juice Republican turnout, and I honestly think it will work.
I mean, depends, I think the Dems have a pretty good cudgel themselves. This would help both sides a great deal. The GOP may not wait, but it's a good idea for them to.
I think the republicans are immediately going to put up a nominee but people like lisa murkowski i think i have said they won't confirm a new justice this year.
either way both sides are going to go furious into 'call your senator' mode which will probably end up making the turnout in nov insane on both sides.
I totally forgot about Murkowski, and Romney's also been getting off on being an anti-Trump Republican so I think you're right, they won't have the numbers.
Oh I admit that was a bit of a hope on my part regarding Biden (I would just find it more amusing if he lost and I think Trump is better for the rise of socialism as he is weakening US imperialism with his ignorance) I admit it may not weaken him but it brings joy and mirth to be to think of liberals being unable to use it as a point of shame with the more skeptical Bernie-liberal types and their frustration is amusing.
As to it depressing Republican turn-out. I don't think so. The people who most care about that are Evangelicals and they are going to turn out maximally for him after he's successfully taken the court for them because they will be celebrating in the hope Roe v Wade will soon be dead. If it had happened last year, yeah maybe, but the excited high of totally controlling the court for the next few decades is going to drive them out. Anyways they're kind of beyond needing the court issue. Evangelicals are deeply fascistic and love Trump just for playing the strongman. You're frankly ignorant of Republican intra-party politics if you think this will depress their turn-out. Trust me when I say the Republicans who care about the court are pretty reliable voters, they vote in off-years as well.
You have blinders on. You strike me as fearful because you genuinely and ignorantly believe the US can be saved or turned "progressive". That it isn't an evil empire that always has been but which has decayed to the point the internal liberal peace is breaking down. This is a matter of not merely social conditions but material.
What about my take do you disagree with? I already said the Biden losing was more a hope than a prediction. Do you honestly think there is a strong case that Biden winning is better for socialism and class consciousness development within the US? Do you seriously think there is a case that Biden winning would result in better decline of US power and reach as an empire?
Notice I don't claim to know what will happen exactly. The strong predictive power of scientific socialism is limited to macro level developments. I'm simply hypothesizing along likely lines and developments. My number one goal is the weakening of US hegemony. I think that is a necessary requisite for socialism anywhere and eventual communism.
As I am the only true leftist on this website, clearly everyone else here is liberals, but if you strive to be like me in word, deed and thought then while you won't ever be a leftist like me, you can grow to be less of a lib.
In imitating my "only true leftist" bit and calling everyone who disagrees with them a :LIB: @darkcalling approaches true leftism. By speaking against this bit you have sinned and risk me thinking you're less cool.
My current policy is if I think you're super cool after your account gets banned I might try to doxx you and message you about being friends IRL.
I'm working up to the bit where I get my account temp banned for three days before logging off semi-permanently and after that I might relax my standards for IRL meetups a bit. IDK tho.
What if the outcome is more along the lines of 1930-1940 Germany, where the Right obliterates the country forcing the left to flee or die? And only decades from now, does the US recover as a progressive nation.
Yea but if we continue collapsing for the next 10 years, things can get a LOT worse. And only be able to rebuild after losing a major war. Maybe China bombs us...
lol, I want Xi to dress up as Truman and be all, "iT wAs NeCeSsArY", "aCtUaLlY iT sAvEd AmErIcAn LiVeS", and "WhEn YoU hAvE tO dEaL wItH a BeAsT yOu HaVe To TrEaT hIm As A bEaSt”
The US will not have real proletarian solidarity and real socialist/revolutionary potential until substantial changes. As the heart of the empire, many would argue you're doomed to fascism due to material abundance and comfort created by imperialist exploitation of the global south. The truth is fascist social potential has been building in the US for some time. Trump took it out of the box further than anyone and it is not going to be put back in. As I see it Biden being elected puts things off, nothing more. The Republicans are going to elect an open fascist with a functioning brain and less skittishness about imperialism than Trump the next election or the one after. If the left has not made substantial gains, if liberals are convinced the system is not in free fall, that it can be repaired everyone not a reactionary is going to be in some real trouble.
You are frankly ill informed if you think the make-up of the Supreme Court will make or break the fascist moment in the US. Fascism is a result of capitalism defending itself when contradictions have risen too high. It partners with reactionary social thought which the US is already rife on. The US is quite ready to be fascist, the capitalists just need to flick the switch once too many emergency lights start blinking. Presidents have defied them before and they often go out of their way to avoid answering constitutional violations in moments of crisis (think 9/11) even if they do happen to strongly believe it is wrong because they have no standing army or enforcers, the second the president says no their illusion of power crumbles and the respect for the institution with it.
The best scenario for the US as far as advancing communism world-wide is for it to balkanize and break apart. This will be messy but the people in the US are too comfortable and too brainwashed for socialist revolution to occur there anytime but after every other country has already fallen.
You realize that the election probably means absolutely nothing now right? The supreme court is just going to rule it in favor of Trump just like they did with Bush in 2000 even though if the recount had happened, Gore would've won.
Good. Now Trump can appoint someone. The libs won't have any supreme court seats to shame people over to vote Biden over, Biden will hopefully tank and increasing the liberals will realize the institutional processes have failed them and they can either accept what comes as a result and lie down and take it or accept the system needs changes.
The sooner you realize America is fucked and has been fucked for a while court or no court the sooner you accept these things as necessary to awake the sleepy liberals from their lazy stupor. Only once they've accepted the institutions are lost, that there is nothing sacred left to defend. Then we can see real change. Maybe not revolutionary but certainly we'll be seeing new comrades and maybe you lesser evilism folks might even get an angry enough coalition to get that vaunted harm reduction you're always on about.
This is more wishful thinking than thinking that they'll wait to appoint a new justice after the election.
How is it wishful thinking? Meaningless accusation given how many people sitting on this very website were liberals until Trump broke their brains when he was elected. It works. Liberal trust in institutions has been weakened by Trump's term. Turning the supreme court completely against them due to what they see as an illegitimately elected president while further shatter their belief in the institutions and America itself. Yes it won't work for all of them obviously but it may get enough thinking. They won't be able to run from the horrors now, they won't be able to put the Trump administration away and pretend all is back to normal and they're safe with their Obama body pillow.
America must be weakened internally. Furthering the splits, furthering the antagonisms, the contradictions will accomplish this.
Biden won't tank because of this shit, he'd increase his election chances. This is the WORST THING that could fucking happen to Trump's chances right now. They appoint a justice, there's no incentive to drive his dipshits to the polls, but the Dems have every reason to try to change the way the Supreme Court works and sweep the Senate and the Presidency.
I get you really want this to happen but you have blinders on.
Also the kind of "good, let things get a lot worse so the libs see how bad it is" takes always kinda scare me. Like, please realise that it's always the lower wage working class that disproportionately bare the brunt of this shit
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Well I think what we can do is try and point out those contradictions in a way that resonates with the working class that is most affected by them. And believe me, this excellerationist stuff does not resonate. And, like you say organise community support. Show people that an alternative exists and is materially better for them. I think we should at least try to project a hopeful image of the future we want and try to make people believe that more is possible
deleted by creator
I get what you mean. I guess the problem I have is more of a nuance thing. I'd like to see us leftists jumping on this as an opertunity to build more community and class consciousness. Instead what I see a lot (I'm not accusing you of this) of then let them burn it all down as we stand, watch and laugh. So yes, I too want to see the Liberal institutions crumble. But the reason why is because I feel like they are devoid of real humanity. So what I would hope to see is us finally claiming the Moral high ground we're entitled to because our politics actually materially supports morality and justice, you know?
deleted by creator
That's what I'm afraid of too
Uh I hate to tell you this but uh communists in America are in no way a significant enough force to accelerate or otherwise change how things are going.
And how do you think you are going to get a socialist movement in America? The most privileged, propagandized to center of the imperial core? I mean fuck don't make me laugh. You think you'll do it by gradually attacking liberals while Biden's in office? Trump getting elected did more to grow the left than the last 20 years of politics as normal. I won't lie, Bernie was an essential ingredient in that but he's no longer necessary.
Anyways, hell for who? It's already hell for people of color, for women in red states, and for the billions of people worldwide under the US/NATO/Western imperialist boot. You are in the belly of the beast. Try telling Syrians or Libyans or Yemenis or Iraqis that things aren't hell or that this is going to make you sad, tell the mothers of the dead children that you're super worried about this. You're the delusional one if you think business as normal with liberals plodding along ignorantly, half asleep because of Biden and intact institutions they can believe in is going to magically lead to better conditions for growth of socialism in the US or better conditions for people in the US or globally. The US is in decay, it is getting violent. You have Cold War 2.0, Red Scare 3.0 on your hands, the Dems are all on board, lets all attack China, stop the communist party of China, etc. The crazed Trump people? They aren't going back in the box because a Democrat wins. Qanon nutters? They're not going back in the box because a Democrat wins. The Democrats are going to continue to compromise. You need big things to shock the people awake, to get the liberals to pay attention and understand this is not just a Trump thing, that orange man going away will not fix things.
But this website is full of privileged, white Americans. So I am not surprised.
And again as I've said before, if you think the Supreme Court and control of it is going to have any kind of role in whether full blown fascism unfurls here you are ignorant and need to read more. That's incredibly smooth-brained. What it is important as, is a symbol. And the more people who reject its legitimacy within the US the better. The more people who see the US government as illegitimate the better. There is a fairly decent chance we see a second civil war, a balkanization or attempt at it in the coming decades.
Embrace the fear. You can flee if you want but if you're not fleeing don't act like you're going to influence what happens next, don't sit on the edge of your seat hoping bourgeois pawn with a D next to their name will save you, they won't! Give up the liberal breathlessness at the precious liberal institutions being corrupted. You'll feel better mentally.
To quote Gramsci "The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters".
I'm not saying you have to be happy about it. And some fear is understandable, there are bad times ahead but there would have been if she'd lived another 20 years. But try and understand the larger breakdown of capitalism, the crisis occurring right now and what all that means and what we need to happen to punch through the propaganda.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
I can only imagine. Just know that there are a lot of us that care about you and will fight to protect your rights as a human being. We're here for you, comrade!
Yeah, it's going to have to be real dark before the lanyards truly suffer. It's a common fantasy around here.
I mean, I understand where the sentiment comes from, but damn
Judicial appointments are a far greater motivation for conservatives than liberals. “Evil activist judges” is a talking point drilled into their heads for decades, having deep resentment over Roe v Wade and Obergefell. There just isn’t the same energetic resentment in Democrats, they’re not nearly as attuned to the importance of judicial appointments. So the winning move is for the GOP to delay the nomination until after the election to juice Republican turnout, and I honestly think it will work.
I mean, depends, I think the Dems have a pretty good cudgel themselves. This would help both sides a great deal. The GOP may not wait, but it's a good idea for them to.
I think the republicans are immediately going to put up a nominee but people like lisa murkowski i think i have said they won't confirm a new justice this year. either way both sides are going to go furious into 'call your senator' mode which will probably end up making the turnout in nov insane on both sides.
I totally forgot about Murkowski, and Romney's also been getting off on being an anti-Trump Republican so I think you're right, they won't have the numbers.
yea msnbc's reporting now that she just made a new statement that reaffirmed what she said earlier this year, so there's that.
Oh I admit that was a bit of a hope on my part regarding Biden (I would just find it more amusing if he lost and I think Trump is better for the rise of socialism as he is weakening US imperialism with his ignorance) I admit it may not weaken him but it brings joy and mirth to be to think of liberals being unable to use it as a point of shame with the more skeptical Bernie-liberal types and their frustration is amusing.
As to it depressing Republican turn-out. I don't think so. The people who most care about that are Evangelicals and they are going to turn out maximally for him after he's successfully taken the court for them because they will be celebrating in the hope Roe v Wade will soon be dead. If it had happened last year, yeah maybe, but the excited high of totally controlling the court for the next few decades is going to drive them out. Anyways they're kind of beyond needing the court issue. Evangelicals are deeply fascistic and love Trump just for playing the strongman. You're frankly ignorant of Republican intra-party politics if you think this will depress their turn-out. Trust me when I say the Republicans who care about the court are pretty reliable voters, they vote in off-years as well.
You have blinders on. You strike me as fearful because you genuinely and ignorantly believe the US can be saved or turned "progressive". That it isn't an evil empire that always has been but which has decayed to the point the internal liberal peace is breaking down. This is a matter of not merely social conditions but material.
lmao
Just because I don't think that things will turn out the way you think doesn't make me a liberal. Jesus.
That's not a strong denial but okay.
What about my take do you disagree with? I already said the Biden losing was more a hope than a prediction. Do you honestly think there is a strong case that Biden winning is better for socialism and class consciousness development within the US? Do you seriously think there is a case that Biden winning would result in better decline of US power and reach as an empire?
Notice I don't claim to know what will happen exactly. The strong predictive power of scientific socialism is limited to macro level developments. I'm simply hypothesizing along likely lines and developments. My number one goal is the weakening of US hegemony. I think that is a necessary requisite for socialism anywhere and eventual communism.
I'm not a liberal and you're being an asshole about it. I don't feel like talking to someone who's being an asshole.
I mean, I see it kinda like Christianity.
As I am the only true leftist on this website, clearly everyone else here is liberals, but if you strive to be like me in word, deed and thought then while you won't ever be a leftist like me, you can grow to be less of a lib.
In imitating my "only true leftist" bit and calling everyone who disagrees with them a :LIB: @darkcalling approaches true leftism. By speaking against this bit you have sinned and risk me thinking you're less cool.
My current policy is if I think you're super cool after your account gets banned I might try to doxx you and message you about being friends IRL.
I'm working up to the bit where I get my account temp banned for three days before logging off semi-permanently and after that I might relax my standards for IRL meetups a bit. IDK tho.
"America is fucked."
"This is wishful thinking."
lol on a leftist forum that is what passes for wishful thinking
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What if the outcome is more along the lines of 1930-1940 Germany, where the Right obliterates the country forcing the left to flee or die? And only decades from now, does the US recover as a progressive nation.
deleted by creator
Yea but if we continue collapsing for the next 10 years, things can get a LOT worse. And only be able to rebuild after losing a major war. Maybe China bombs us...
Inshallah
lol, I want Xi to dress up as Truman and be all, "iT wAs NeCeSsArY", "aCtUaLlY iT sAvEd AmErIcAn LiVeS", and "WhEn YoU hAvE tO dEaL wItH a BeAsT yOu HaVe To TrEaT hIm As A bEaSt”
What if WW2 but Germany is the US and USSR/US is China.
"Progressive" is a meaningless liberal term.
The US will not have real proletarian solidarity and real socialist/revolutionary potential until substantial changes. As the heart of the empire, many would argue you're doomed to fascism due to material abundance and comfort created by imperialist exploitation of the global south. The truth is fascist social potential has been building in the US for some time. Trump took it out of the box further than anyone and it is not going to be put back in. As I see it Biden being elected puts things off, nothing more. The Republicans are going to elect an open fascist with a functioning brain and less skittishness about imperialism than Trump the next election or the one after. If the left has not made substantial gains, if liberals are convinced the system is not in free fall, that it can be repaired everyone not a reactionary is going to be in some real trouble.
You are frankly ill informed if you think the make-up of the Supreme Court will make or break the fascist moment in the US. Fascism is a result of capitalism defending itself when contradictions have risen too high. It partners with reactionary social thought which the US is already rife on. The US is quite ready to be fascist, the capitalists just need to flick the switch once too many emergency lights start blinking. Presidents have defied them before and they often go out of their way to avoid answering constitutional violations in moments of crisis (think 9/11) even if they do happen to strongly believe it is wrong because they have no standing army or enforcers, the second the president says no their illusion of power crumbles and the respect for the institution with it.
The best scenario for the US as far as advancing communism world-wide is for it to balkanize and break apart. This will be messy but the people in the US are too comfortable and too brainwashed for socialist revolution to occur there anytime but after every other country has already fallen.
What about the best case scenario overall?
deleted by creator
You realize that the election probably means absolutely nothing now right? The supreme court is just going to rule it in favor of Trump just like they did with Bush in 2000 even though if the recount had happened, Gore would've won.