I’m trying to be very careful in how I say this, and I’m not trying to be a debate bro.
I find it triggering to say ALL violence is self-defense. There is no defense for sexual violence.
I can understand killing oppressors and even kidnapping families to gain leverage, but there is no situation that calls for rape and no excuse for it.
I understand that members of the IDF and US military are guilty of this too, and they deserve death.
I understand that you didn’t want to have a bunch of caveats in a blanket statement. I also know this is nothing unique to this conflict and happens in every war, I just think that’s the one area where our support can be critical.
Horrible things happen when settlers try to genocide millions of human beings to steal their land. Every sort of violence, sexual included, is a guarantee. That is what war is. There is no clean war.
That will go both ways, but only one side has the power to put a stop to this brutal status quo. The settlers have to end the genocide, and the war will stop.
I agree that Israel is the one who has the power to stop the war and genocide.
I do not agree that rape is self defense nor is it necessary for revolution. Are you planning on raping the capitalists if we see a revolution in our lifetime? If not, then I’m sure you can understand that it’s possible not to.
No, rape is never justified, even in war. However, ugly acts of vengeance are inevitable when the oppressed find themselves with captive members of the oppressor class. They may be unarmed civilians, but they were partying within walking distance of the Gaza border so they were direct beneficiaries of the oppression.
It's a bit of a quandary as an American. I don't believe violence against me or my family is deserved despite benefiting from American oppression. Though I do understand why somebody would want to commit an act of violence against Americans, and might even call it justified depending on the situation.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?
I'd say it's basically guaranteed it happened, like in every war. The real question is whether it's sanctioned or condoned by the higher ups or not, that I can't answer.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?
Yes. Even inside of Gaza i.e. against some people deemed gay, some "traitors". Within torture it is mostly not complementary with sexual violence. So within this conflict there will be some cases, the question will be if it is widespread policy (unlikely), if it is "lack of oversight+patriarchy+spaces without law+antisemitism", etc.
However in any case the limit for certain types of violence and certain targets of violence is important. During the last day we did see that plenty on this site aren't really differentiating or equating everyone in Israel as guilty and therefore fine to be killed (without making clear if they mean targeted, or as collateral damage i.e. car bombings that kill civilians in front of military bases).
The line of the ANC's MK was different in that regard that not all violence and all targets were seen as acceptable or justified. So the site's line is more regressive than feminist Marxists ought to be.
*Edit: Hamas did shit the bed in this operation. *
I admit I haven’t watched any of the videos so I am going off of how people have described them.
My husband has been watching the videos, he said they were parading around a German tourist’s naked dead body.
And I’ve read in multiple places of a woman being thrown in a jeep with blood in the back of her pants.
I’m have been taking these at face value, but thank you for the reminder that we live in a new age of disinformation. I hope that the videos are fake.
EDIT: This Daily Mail article has screenshots of the two videos I referenced although the most graphic one is blurred. Not a reliable source, but evidence that these videos do exist and more legit news organizations are still doing more due diligence to verify their authenticity.
I think it is unlikely that a video was faked that happens to have the distinctive tattoos and hairstyle of a woman who was known to be in Israel at the time.
You're right that the content hasn't changed much except for which groups are included as the "outgroup." The "new age" is less about what the content is and more about how it's being spread. The methods by which unsavory ideas are shared can reach further because of the internet and are more nuanced and targeted towards people who are susceptible to the way these ideas are communicated. Targeting socially, politically, or economically disenfranchised people with sympathetic rhetoric and then gradually introducing brown, gay, lefty hordes as the root cause boogieman has proven effective as more people are swept up into right wing ideology.
I don’t mean the content of disinformation is new, but the technology.
There is proof that these videos exist, but I don’t know if there’s proof that they’re legitimate.
I find it unlikely that a video was faked with a naked woman’s body showing distinct tattoos and hair of a woman known to be in Israel at the time. But in general, I am not qualified to determine the legitimacy of videos and photos, and I will be more cautious in just repeating what other people have said.
Even if it’s all legit, I think it’s worth interrogating why those are the videos being shown, and not videos of the extreme suffering the Palestinians have endured for decades.
That’s fair. Although in terms of sexual violence, I think there is less footage to show of Israeli perpetrators because it most frequently happens inside prisons and recording is not beneficial to Israel.
In general, I try not to comment on the Israeli occupation because I was propagandized from a very young age to be pro Israel and am still in the process of deprogamming. Even in this comment, I initially wrote the Isreali-Palestinian conflict before changing my language to Israeli occupation. So I appreciate you bringing a perspective that I overlooked.
I just don’t want us to hand wave sexual violence as “just a part of war.” To me, that’s the same argument as people saying communism sounds nice on paper, but human nature is greed and capitalism.
This is more of a why are men scenario, not why are Palestinians.
EDIT: Just want to clarify, when I say it mostly happens in prisons, I don’t mean that Israelis aren’t assaulting civilians. They arrest anyone they want, call them a terrorist, and do despicable things behind closed doors.
I just don’t want us to hand wave sexual violence as “just a part of war."
That doesn't really sit well with me either. Personally, my takeaway from these anecdotes is not that "these Israeli people deserve to be brutalized". It's that the sheer inhumanity of 80 years of occupation where ten times the brutality happened every single day recontextualizes the few atrocities we'll see amplified in our media showing how barbaric the Palestinian resistance is. I do think that's different from excusing sexual violence, and if anyone does that our mods should be quick to deal with them.
I think it’s a given. Hamas isn’t actually a based organization. It’s just that they’re usually one of the few organizations left that physically combat Israel. Many rebels tend to soften up when they take over because they need international support and recognition, so here’s hoping to them winning quickly and the suffering can be minimized.
Yes, I always think of the psych speak statement, "Hurt people hurt people."
Look back far enough into any atrocity and you see some traumatised young kid who's given a weapon and no therapy, and hasn't got the virtues of character that allow most traumatised people to not go...uh...Bad Crazy. Heck, entire civilisations have relied on that trauma as a way of building oppressors.
That doesn't mean that the people who do such things shouldn't have consequences, only that it's gonna happen, and at some point we need not bland lib forgiveness or "The Wall" but the fraught process of giving Equity, followed by Truth and Reconciliation.
This is a stance that would mean that any person buying US/UK/French/Iranian/Turkish/South Korean/Philipine/Maroccon/Brazilian/Mexican products deserves to die.
It is a moralistic idealist claim, not a Marxist one.
purchasing a US made product in a store, say if its the cheapest option for example, is completely incomparable to booking a flight, reserving a place to stay, and going to travel to and financially support a genocidal state and the settlers living under it...
There are virtually no completely US made products anymore. But in any case any car you buy that is completely US made is a commodity of the kind I mention. That is more than comparable to a flight. What you want to say is: I find it acceptable to targeted kill hundreds of ravers outside the occupied territory in Palestine, including tourists, Israeli Arabs and alike.
What I wrote wasn't the cheapest option but for cars the cheapest US option is comparable and you are aware that you are not in general having an as principled stance as you give it now.
Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?
No reason to hit prisoners if they are cooperative. Agreed, sexual violence is never permissible under any circumstances. Attacking Israeli adults is fine, they are settlers and on stolen land economically supporting an apartheid state
Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?
Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.
The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.
This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".
What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).
The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.
Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary
If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/
what the fuck are you talking about? The primary contradiction is imperialism. If you think those resisting genocide are fascists then YOU aren't a marxist. Such chauvinism. The fact that some are socially reactionary is immaterial to them being on the objectively correct side of an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggle. Failure to support them is tantamount to class treason
If you think those resisting genocide are fascists
Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.
to first check who at an Israeli festival is a settler and who isn't before
This is what the RAF did with the kidnapping of the Landshut flight. Which was a problem as some Germans did select people for being Jewish/non Jewish. But yes, if you do stuff like that you have to discriminate in any case.
However what you do tell, too, is that killing the ravers (and taking them hostage), is okay in any case as corollary. Rojava was able to fight Isis more targeted than that. The PKK of old did target more focused, as was Mao's and Enlai's actions.
Murdering old ladies and uploading the video to her Facebook account is also not ok.
I'm not involved and don't have a side in this argument and both of them have done some horrible stuff but what's been coming out over the last few days has been fucking disgusting.
and i think some of the attendees were foreigners too. so you traveled to an apartheid state to have fun at a rave, just miles from the world's largest open air prison meant for ethnic cleansing? they were totally okay with the ethnic cleansing, just as long as they had a fun time at their little event and then went home. the palestinians just a few miles away do not have this luxury.
I’m trying to be very careful in how I say this, and I’m not trying to be a debate bro.
I find it triggering to say ALL violence is self-defense. There is no defense for sexual violence.
I can understand killing oppressors and even kidnapping families to gain leverage, but there is no situation that calls for rape and no excuse for it.
I understand that members of the IDF and US military are guilty of this too, and they deserve death.
I understand that you didn’t want to have a bunch of caveats in a blanket statement. I also know this is nothing unique to this conflict and happens in every war, I just think that’s the one area where our support can be critical.
Horrible things happen when settlers try to genocide millions of human beings to steal their land. Every sort of violence, sexual included, is a guarantee. That is what war is. There is no clean war.
That will go both ways, but only one side has the power to put a stop to this brutal status quo. The settlers have to end the genocide, and the war will stop.
I agree that Israel is the one who has the power to stop the war and genocide.
I do not agree that rape is self defense nor is it necessary for revolution. Are you planning on raping the capitalists if we see a revolution in our lifetime? If not, then I’m sure you can understand that it’s possible not to.
I am going to disengage from this conversation.
No, rape is never justified, even in war. However, ugly acts of vengeance are inevitable when the oppressed find themselves with captive members of the oppressor class. They may be unarmed civilians, but they were partying within walking distance of the Gaza border so they were direct beneficiaries of the oppression.
It's a bit of a quandary as an American. I don't believe violence against me or my family is deserved despite benefiting from American oppression. Though I do understand why somebody would want to commit an act of violence against Americans, and might even call it justified depending on the situation.
Any revolutionary should act as human as the circumstances allow, that's a reasonable moral standard.
But these acts don't delegitimize the Palestinian cause whatsoever, they are just a sad reality of war.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence? I've been reading about this all day but haven't seen literally anything.
If they've done that, sure, fuck them, but all ive seen is racist libs trying to attribute it to them based on videos they refuse to share.
I'd say it's basically guaranteed it happened, like in every war. The real question is whether it's sanctioned or condoned by the higher ups or not, that I can't answer.
Yes. Even inside of Gaza i.e. against some people deemed gay, some "traitors". Within torture it is mostly not complementary with sexual violence. So within this conflict there will be some cases, the question will be if it is widespread policy (unlikely), if it is "lack of oversight+patriarchy+spaces without law+antisemitism", etc.
However in any case the limit for certain types of violence and certain targets of violence is important. During the last day we did see that plenty on this site aren't really differentiating or equating everyone in Israel as guilty and therefore fine to be killed (without making clear if they mean targeted, or as collateral damage i.e. car bombings that kill civilians in front of military bases).
The line of the ANC's MK was different in that regard that not all violence and all targets were seen as acceptable or justified. So the site's line is more regressive than feminist Marxists ought to be.
*Edit: Hamas did shit the bed in this operation. *
I admit I haven’t watched any of the videos so I am going off of how people have described them.
My husband has been watching the videos, he said they were parading around a German tourist’s naked dead body.
And I’ve read in multiple places of a woman being thrown in a jeep with blood in the back of her pants.
I’m have been taking these at face value, but thank you for the reminder that we live in a new age of disinformation. I hope that the videos are fake.
EDIT: This Daily Mail article has screenshots of the two videos I referenced although the most graphic one is blurred. Not a reliable source, but evidence that these videos do exist and more legit news organizations are still doing more due diligence to verify their authenticity.
I think it is unlikely that a video was faked that happens to have the distinctive tattoos and hairstyle of a woman who was known to be in Israel at the time.
oh come on, the ravenous brown horde coming for your women isn't exactly from a new age of disinformation
You're right that the content hasn't changed much except for which groups are included as the "outgroup." The "new age" is less about what the content is and more about how it's being spread. The methods by which unsavory ideas are shared can reach further because of the internet and are more nuanced and targeted towards people who are susceptible to the way these ideas are communicated. Targeting socially, politically, or economically disenfranchised people with sympathetic rhetoric and then gradually introducing brown, gay, lefty hordes as the root cause boogieman has proven effective as more people are swept up into right wing ideology.
I don’t mean the content of disinformation is new, but the technology.
There is proof that these videos exist, but I don’t know if there’s proof that they’re legitimate.
I find it unlikely that a video was faked with a naked woman’s body showing distinct tattoos and hair of a woman known to be in Israel at the time. But in general, I am not qualified to determine the legitimacy of videos and photos, and I will be more cautious in just repeating what other people have said.
Even if it’s all legit, I think it’s worth interrogating why those are the videos being shown, and not videos of the extreme suffering the Palestinians have endured for decades.
That’s fair. Although in terms of sexual violence, I think there is less footage to show of Israeli perpetrators because it most frequently happens inside prisons and recording is not beneficial to Israel.
In general, I try not to comment on the Israeli occupation because I was propagandized from a very young age to be pro Israel and am still in the process of deprogamming. Even in this comment, I initially wrote the Isreali-Palestinian conflict before changing my language to Israeli occupation. So I appreciate you bringing a perspective that I overlooked.
I just don’t want us to hand wave sexual violence as “just a part of war.” To me, that’s the same argument as people saying communism sounds nice on paper, but human nature is greed and capitalism.
This is more of a why are men scenario, not why are Palestinians.
EDIT: Just want to clarify, when I say it mostly happens in prisons, I don’t mean that Israelis aren’t assaulting civilians. They arrest anyone they want, call them a terrorist, and do despicable things behind closed doors.
That doesn't really sit well with me either. Personally, my takeaway from these anecdotes is not that "these Israeli people deserve to be brutalized". It's that the sheer inhumanity of 80 years of occupation where ten times the brutality happened every single day recontextualizes the few atrocities we'll see amplified in our media showing how barbaric the Palestinian resistance is. I do think that's different from excusing sexual violence, and if anyone does that our mods should be quick to deal with them.
I think it’s a given. Hamas isn’t actually a based organization. It’s just that they’re usually one of the few organizations left that physically combat Israel. Many rebels tend to soften up when they take over because they need international support and recognition, so here’s hoping to them winning quickly and the suffering can be minimized.
Yes, I always think of the psych speak statement, "Hurt people hurt people."
Look back far enough into any atrocity and you see some traumatised young kid who's given a weapon and no therapy, and hasn't got the virtues of character that allow most traumatised people to not go...uh...Bad Crazy. Heck, entire civilisations have relied on that trauma as a way of building oppressors.
That doesn't mean that the people who do such things shouldn't have consequences, only that it's gonna happen, and at some point we need not bland lib forgiveness or "The Wall" but the fraught process of giving Equity, followed by Truth and Reconciliation.
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Abducting kids is not okay, hitting them is not okay, sexual violence is not okay, targeting tourists at a rave is not okay.
Tourists shouldn't have voluntarily given their money to state that's been doing genocide openly for decades.
This is a stance that would mean that any person buying US/UK/French/Iranian/Turkish/South Korean/Philipine/Maroccon/Brazilian/Mexican products deserves to die.
It is a moralistic idealist claim, not a Marxist one.
purchasing a US made product in a store, say if its the cheapest option for example, is completely incomparable to booking a flight, reserving a place to stay, and going to travel to and financially support a genocidal state and the settlers living under it...
There are virtually no completely US made products anymore. But in any case any car you buy that is completely US made is a commodity of the kind I mention. That is more than comparable to a flight. What you want to say is: I find it acceptable to targeted kill hundreds of ravers outside the occupied territory in Palestine, including tourists, Israeli Arabs and alike.
What I wrote wasn't the cheapest option but for cars the cheapest US option is comparable and you are aware that you are not in general having an as principled stance as you give it now.
Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?
No reason to hit prisoners if they are cooperative. Agreed, sexual violence is never permissible under any circumstances. Attacking Israeli adults is fine, they are settlers and on stolen land economically supporting an apartheid state
Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.
The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.
This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".
What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).
The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.
Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary or fascist, and I think you are being chauvinist
If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/
what the fuck are you talking about? The primary contradiction is imperialism. If you think those resisting genocide are fascists then YOU aren't a marxist. Such chauvinism. The fact that some are socially reactionary is immaterial to them being on the objectively correct side of an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggle. Failure to support them is tantamount to class treason
Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.
Targeting tourists at a rave on stolen land next to an open air prison that holds the rightful stewards of that land is ok
Please give me Marxist text backing for your position.
Hamas isn't marxist, they don't follow marxist rules. They're anti-imperialist so we give them critical support.
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This is what the RAF did with the kidnapping of the Landshut flight. Which was a problem as some Germans did select people for being Jewish/non Jewish. But yes, if you do stuff like that you have to discriminate in any case.
However what you do tell, too, is that killing the ravers (and taking them hostage), is okay in any case as corollary. Rojava was able to fight Isis more targeted than that. The PKK of old did target more focused, as was Mao's and Enlai's actions.
Murdering old ladies and uploading the video to her Facebook account is also not ok.
I'm not involved and don't have a side in this argument and both of them have done some horrible stuff but what's been coming out over the last few days has been fucking disgusting.
It makes me sad that they killed people at a concert and it reminds me of two things.
1 - Hamas are bad guys that i only like because theyre rescuing their people from oppression.
2 - Ill never go to Isreal even if i win the lottery so its not my problem to stress myself out over.
i makes me sad that people would go to a fucking concert next to a concentration camp
and i think some of the attendees were foreigners too. so you traveled to an apartheid state to have fun at a rave, just miles from the world's largest open air prison meant for ethnic cleansing? they were totally okay with the ethnic cleansing, just as long as they had a fun time at their little event and then went home. the palestinians just a few miles away do not have this luxury.
Yeah thats how it is.