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The Israelis have the power to end the political and economic conditions (which they created and maintain) which lead to violence
The Palestinians do not
If you're saddened or angered by the deaths of Israeli civilians, you can take those complaints straight to the Israeli government. Any handwringing about violence committed by the Palestinians is de facto support for the illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the apartheid state of Israel.
One of the most standout moments from the pod ever was when Felix went on a rant (and showed emotion for once) where he talked about how Netanyahu wants the Jewish diaspora to experience antisemtism and be afraid for their lives because it serves his agenda for that to be the case.
Libs on reddit and the MSM calling this an "intelligence failure" are out of their minds. Mossad allowed for this to happen to drum up fear and jingoism and justify horrific reprisals against the Palestinian people.
There is a possibility that the zionist regime covertly allowed the resistance to grow bolder in order to increase support for genocide. They're certainly callous enough to sacrifice a few hundred of their own people to score points.
However, there is no proof for this and until there is, it remains an unproven conspiracy theory. Even if there was some shenanigans going on behind the scene it seems unlikely that they wanted it to go as far as it has, while some spectacular attacks to drum up support for genocide makes sense in their sick minds, a giant humiliation and breakdown in public trust that the regime is able to keep its own population safe does not.
I can never forget the anecdote about the Israeli policeman/soldier making an old man kiss a donkey's ass in front of the old man's grandkid. the naked cruelty and sadistic humiliation
Ever since the unofficial IDF t-shirt design linked of a cross hair over a pregnant women with the words "one shot two kills" I've pretty much been at the "these people deserve everything that's coming and more" stage
I’m trying to be very careful in how I say this, and I’m not trying to be a debate bro.
I find it triggering to say ALL violence is self-defense. There is no defense for sexual violence.
I can understand killing oppressors and even kidnapping families to gain leverage, but there is no situation that calls for rape and no excuse for it.
I understand that members of the IDF and US military are guilty of this too, and they deserve death.
I understand that you didn’t want to have a bunch of caveats in a blanket statement. I also know this is nothing unique to this conflict and happens in every war, I just think that’s the one area where our support can be critical.
Horrible things happen when settlers try to genocide millions of human beings to steal their land. Every sort of violence, sexual included, is a guarantee. That is what war is. There is no clean war.
That will go both ways, but only one side has the power to put a stop to this brutal status quo. The settlers have to end the genocide, and the war will stop.
I agree that Israel is the one who has the power to stop the war and genocide.
I do not agree that rape is self defense nor is it necessary for revolution. Are you planning on raping the capitalists if we see a revolution in our lifetime? If not, then I’m sure you can understand that it’s possible not to.
I am going to disengage from this conversation.
Any revolutionary should act as human as the circumstances allow, that's a reasonable moral standard.
But these acts don't delegitimize the Palestinian cause whatsoever, they are just a sad reality of war.
No, rape is never justified, even in war. However, ugly acts of vengeance are inevitable when the oppressed find themselves with captive members of the oppressor class. They may be unarmed civilians, but they were partying within walking distance of the Gaza border so they were direct beneficiaries of the oppression.
It's a bit of a quandary as an American. I don't believe violence against me or my family is deserved despite benefiting from American oppression. Though I do understand why somebody would want to commit an act of violence against Americans, and might even call it justified depending on the situation.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence? I've been reading about this all day but haven't seen literally anything.
If they've done that, sure, fuck them, but all ive seen is racist libs trying to attribute it to them based on videos they refuse to share.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?
I'd say it's basically guaranteed it happened, like in every war. The real question is whether it's sanctioned or condoned by the higher ups or not, that I can't answer.
Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?
Yes. Even inside of Gaza i.e. against some people deemed gay, some "traitors". Within torture it is mostly not complementary with sexual violence. So within this conflict there will be some cases, the question will be if it is widespread policy (unlikely), if it is "lack of oversight+patriarchy+spaces without law+antisemitism", etc.
However in any case the limit for certain types of violence and certain targets of violence is important. During the last day we did see that plenty on this site aren't really differentiating or equating everyone in Israel as guilty and therefore fine to be killed (without making clear if they mean targeted, or as collateral damage i.e. car bombings that kill civilians in front of military bases).
The line of the ANC's MK was different in that regard that not all violence and all targets were seen as acceptable or justified. So the site's line is more regressive than feminist Marxists ought to be.
*Edit: Hamas did shit the bed in this operation. *
I admit I haven’t watched any of the videos so I am going off of how people have described them.
My husband has been watching the videos, he said they were parading around a German tourist’s naked dead body.
And I’ve read in multiple places of a woman being thrown in a jeep with blood in the back of her pants.
I’m have been taking these at face value, but thank you for the reminder that we live in a new age of disinformation. I hope that the videos are fake.
EDIT: This Daily Mail article has screenshots of the two videos I referenced although the most graphic one is blurred. Not a reliable source, but evidence that these videos do exist and more legit news organizations are still doing more due diligence to verify their authenticity.
I think it is unlikely that a video was faked that happens to have the distinctive tattoos and hairstyle of a woman who was known to be in Israel at the time.
I’m have been taking these at face value,
oh come on, the ravenous brown horde coming for your women isn't exactly from a new age of disinformation
You're right that the content hasn't changed much except for which groups are included as the "outgroup." The "new age" is less about what the content is and more about how it's being spread. The methods by which unsavory ideas are shared can reach further because of the internet and are more nuanced and targeted towards people who are susceptible to the way these ideas are communicated. Targeting socially, politically, or economically disenfranchised people with sympathetic rhetoric and then gradually introducing brown, gay, lefty hordes as the root cause boogieman has proven effective as more people are swept up into right wing ideology.
I don’t mean the content of disinformation is new, but the technology.
There is proof that these videos exist, but I don’t know if there’s proof that they’re legitimate.
I find it unlikely that a video was faked with a naked woman’s body showing distinct tattoos and hair of a woman known to be in Israel at the time. But in general, I am not qualified to determine the legitimacy of videos and photos, and I will be more cautious in just repeating what other people have said.
Even if it’s all legit, I think it’s worth interrogating why those are the videos being shown, and not videos of the extreme suffering the Palestinians have endured for decades.
That’s fair. Although in terms of sexual violence, I think there is less footage to show of Israeli perpetrators because it most frequently happens inside prisons and recording is not beneficial to Israel.
In general, I try not to comment on the Israeli occupation because I was propagandized from a very young age to be pro Israel and am still in the process of deprogamming. Even in this comment, I initially wrote the Isreali-Palestinian conflict before changing my language to Israeli occupation. So I appreciate you bringing a perspective that I overlooked.
I just don’t want us to hand wave sexual violence as “just a part of war.” To me, that’s the same argument as people saying communism sounds nice on paper, but human nature is greed and capitalism.
This is more of a why are men scenario, not why are Palestinians.
EDIT: Just want to clarify, when I say it mostly happens in prisons, I don’t mean that Israelis aren’t assaulting civilians. They arrest anyone they want, call them a terrorist, and do despicable things behind closed doors.
I just don’t want us to hand wave sexual violence as “just a part of war."
That doesn't really sit well with me either. Personally, my takeaway from these anecdotes is not that "these Israeli people deserve to be brutalized". It's that the sheer inhumanity of 80 years of occupation where ten times the brutality happened every single day recontextualizes the few atrocities we'll see amplified in our media showing how barbaric the Palestinian resistance is. I do think that's different from excusing sexual violence, and if anyone does that our mods should be quick to deal with them.
I think it’s a given. Hamas isn’t actually a based organization. It’s just that they’re usually one of the few organizations left that physically combat Israel. Many rebels tend to soften up when they take over because they need international support and recognition, so here’s hoping to them winning quickly and the suffering can be minimized.
Yes, I always think of the psych speak statement, "Hurt people hurt people."
Look back far enough into any atrocity and you see some traumatised young kid who's given a weapon and no therapy, and hasn't got the virtues of character that allow most traumatised people to not go...uh...Bad Crazy. Heck, entire civilisations have relied on that trauma as a way of building oppressors.
That doesn't mean that the people who do such things shouldn't have consequences, only that it's gonna happen, and at some point we need not bland lib forgiveness or "The Wall" but the fraught process of giving Equity, followed by Truth and Reconciliation.
Abducting kids is not okay, hitting them is not okay, sexual violence is not okay, targeting tourists at a rave is not okay.
Tourists shouldn't have voluntarily given their money to state that's been doing genocide openly for decades.
This is a stance that would mean that any person buying US/UK/French/Iranian/Turkish/South Korean/Philipine/Maroccon/Brazilian/Mexican products deserves to die.
It is a moralistic idealist claim, not a Marxist one.
purchasing a US made product in a store, say if its the cheapest option for example, is completely incomparable to booking a flight, reserving a place to stay, and going to travel to and financially support a genocidal state and the settlers living under it...
There are virtually no completely US made products anymore. But in any case any car you buy that is completely US made is a commodity of the kind I mention. That is more than comparable to a flight. What you want to say is: I find it acceptable to targeted kill hundreds of ravers outside the occupied territory in Palestine, including tourists, Israeli Arabs and alike.
What I wrote wasn't the cheapest option but for cars the cheapest US option is comparable and you are aware that you are not in general having an as principled stance as you give it now.
Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?
No reason to hit prisoners if they are cooperative. Agreed, sexual violence is never permissible under any circumstances. Attacking Israeli adults is fine, they are settlers and on stolen land economically supporting an apartheid state
Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?
Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.
The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.
This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".
What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).
The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.
Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary or fascist, and I think you are being chauvinist
Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary
If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/
If you think that then you aren't a Marxist.
what the fuck are you talking about? The primary contradiction is imperialism. If you think those resisting genocide are fascists then YOU aren't a marxist. Such chauvinism. The fact that some are socially reactionary is immaterial to them being on the objectively correct side of an anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggle. Failure to support them is tantamount to class treason
If you think those resisting genocide are fascists
Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.
Targeting tourists at a rave on stolen land next to an open air prison that holds the rightful stewards of that land is ok
Targeting tourists at a rave on stolen land next to an open air prison that holds the rightful stewards of that land is ok
Please give me Marxist text backing for your position.
Hamas isn't marxist, they don't follow marxist rules. They're anti-imperialist so we give them critical support.
Murdering old ladies and uploading the video to her Facebook account is also not ok.
I'm not involved and don't have a side in this argument and both of them have done some horrible stuff but what's been coming out over the last few days has been fucking disgusting.
to first check who at an Israeli festival is a settler and who isn't before
This is what the RAF did with the kidnapping of the Landshut flight. Which was a problem as some Germans did select people for being Jewish/non Jewish. But yes, if you do stuff like that you have to discriminate in any case.
However what you do tell, too, is that killing the ravers (and taking them hostage), is okay in any case as corollary. Rojava was able to fight Isis more targeted than that. The PKK of old did target more focused, as was Mao's and Enlai's actions.
It makes me sad that they killed people at a concert and it reminds me of two things.
1 - Hamas are bad guys that i only like because theyre rescuing their people from oppression.
2 - Ill never go to Isreal even if i win the lottery so its not my problem to stress myself out over.
i makes me sad that people would go to a fucking concert next to a concentration camp
and i think some of the attendees were foreigners too. so you traveled to an apartheid state to have fun at a rave, just miles from the world's largest open air prison meant for ethnic cleansing? they were totally okay with the ethnic cleansing, just as long as they had a fun time at their little event and then went home. the palestinians just a few miles away do not have this luxury.
North Koreans already know that Usians are the most propagandized people on earth
Koreans know the true nature of usians better than the usians do, you don't need to tell them shit.
haha, indeed. Now if someone in this thread would take my comment literally and tell the North Koreans they suffer from propaganda... and if you're unable to talk to one of them, maybe the US propaganda is just slightly less of an issue than for a country of people who aren't allowed to cross a border (even on the internet) without being shot or thrown in a gulag.
You just keep proving the initial point correct.
“Haha no North Koreans are more propagandized, I heard on the news that they think Kim Jong Un doesn’t poop haha so stupid and brainwashed”.
Bro reflect on the propaganda you’ve been fed about Koreans and realize that you’re the one that’s been duped.
N Koreans are literal prisoners. Where's the lie? US people can leave the country.
North Koreans can and do leave the country, it’s a bit more complicated since they’re in a state of war ever since the U.S. invaded them and killed a third of their people and then instituted decades of sanctions designed to destroy or starve out the country, which continues today. That doesn’t make them “literal prisoners”.
Which country has the world’s most literal prisoners? By total and by percentage of population? The United States. You may not have known this, since you’re a very propagandized USian, but if you did know it, you may not think it’s so bad, because after all, in North Korea everyone is a prisoner, according to the propaganda you’ve been fed. Well then, no sense in complaining about the mass incarceration in your own country!
Who is served by you being uninformed and brainwashed into believing ridiculous nonsense about America’s enemies?
What about the Koreans who have escaped and talked about Kim being a dictator? Why don't you believe those refugees? They didn't all go to the US either so you can't say they were brainwashed by the US.
There are defectors, yeah. Most of them by the way just leave the country to China through the normal channels and then don’t go back, which kind of discredits the idea that there’s no way to leave the country in the first place.
The ones who go to South Korea are generally held in prisons by the South Korean government and interrogated until they’re determined not to be spies, then treated as second class citizens by South Korean society. There is an industry around putting them on TV so they can talk about how horrible the north is, with clear incentive to exaggerate or invent claims as only the most exaggerated claims can keep you in the spotlight and possibly get you a big payday and an option other than being a second class citizen slaving away in poverty. It’s also illegal in South Korea to speak positively of the North or of Kim.
There are also cases of people who defected from North Korea to South Korea and later decided they would rather return to the North. This is forbidden by the South Korea government, those people ate not granted passports and are barred from ever leaving the country. You can watch a documentary about these cases called the loyal citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul. https://youtu.be/3V4Hnl7J9H4?si=J5VTemHyz-EvEja5
Idk which claims you think I “don’t believe” by these defectors but some are patently ridiculous like much of what Yeonmi Park has said, other claims are things that are probably true but again, difficult conditions in North Korea are largely the result of the U.S’ near genocidal war and sanctions regime against them in the first place, and much of what could be described as “authoritarian” is a response to the existential crisis imposed on them by said war and sanctions regime, and is necessary to prevent the destruction of their state (which it should be noted has far more legitimate origins than the South Korean state, itself established as a military dictatorship and puppet of the U.S.)
Good video on the topic: What's the deal with defectors？-- Hakim
non-youtube link: https://invidious.fdn.fr/watch?v=XDXxXYFweTs
Plenty of North Koreans leave and live in China. The big reason it is so difficult for them to leave in general isn't because they are being held prisoner there by the DPRK government, it's because of restrictions imposed by the US and UN making it impossible for them to live most anywhere else.
"5. North Korean Overseas Workers (OP8): Requires countries to expel all North Korean laborers earning income abroad immediately but no later than 24 months later (end of 2019)."
"Strengthens the ban on providing work authorizations for DPRK nationals by requiring Member States to repatriate all DRPK nationals earning income and all DPRK government safety oversight attachés monitoring DPRK workers abroad within their jurisdiction within 24 months from 22 December 2017."
Meanwhile the DPRK has no official restriction on the people's free movement.
Thanks to @yogthos@lemmygrad.ml for pointing this out a couple months ago, before which I didn't know either.
Yes it's self defence, but individual soldiers who commit atrocities should face disciplinary action for it. After the fighting cools Hamas should conduct internal reviews of incidents to investigate dispassionately. Those found to have behaved inappropriately should face consequences, such as losing out on being awarded certain medals, or in extreme cases even face dishonorable discharge.
Personally I'd hope they consider a standard more humane than the model that the US, Israel and their allies apply; counting every military aged male or dead child found with a rock by their hand as a combatant seems insane to me. Ultimately though that is for them to decide.
I have sympathy for the children of settlers who had no choice in the matter. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with their parents who chose to put their own children in harm's way by bringing them to live on stolen land and with the zionist occupation regime who choose to put their own civilians on stolen land to act as human shields.
Israel brought it upon themselves. I feel bad for the people who were born and entrenched into the colony, but the fault lies with their parents and the government who knew damn well what would entail when you kick other families out their homes. Hamas may have pulled the trigger, but they weren’t the ones who flew their enemies into the country to create families.
What does it mean to be a "civilian" in a place with mandatory military service?
That's wishful thinking IMO. Is there any reason to believe that Hamas of all organizations has a more humane code of conduct than most other militaries on the planet? They're literal islamists, I don't really see how you expect them to behave like anything other than that.
Oh sure, it probably is. More an exercise in perspective considering most libs seem to think that it justifies knee-jerk carpet bombing everyone with the same skin colour.
I agree, but I also hope that Hamas does not lose discipline and turn this into slaughter for slaughter's sake. Either way, the worst is probably yet to come.
War is hell, and civilians suffer in every armed conflict. It is preferable to avoid civilian causalities, but that's often not how it goes at all. After generations of ruthless oppression you're going to end up with profound dehumanization of your oppressors. And even if deliberate effort is made to avoid civilian casualties every bullet has to land somewhere.
The civilian status of Israeli settlers is ambiguous as they are directly and proactively involved in the process of genocide. idk if they can be considered combatants per se, but they're definitely in a different category than civilians living peaceably within their own borders. Israeli settlements are a deliberately act of political violence with the express and very conscious intention of displacing and dispossessing Palestinians. They are illegal under international law and by most definitions constitute genocide. The Israeli government has for decades actively pursued a policy of placing Mizrahi on the frontier as a buffer between the Ashkenazi core and the Palestinian territories. And for the most part settlers are ideologically motivated, enthusiastically enacting the goals of Zionism to create a theocratic Israeli ethnostate. Many of them are religious extremists and fascists.
I would prefer that if Hamas is going to take captives they focus on able bodied people of fighting age, but obviously I'm not calling shots on the ground and I will not judge their decisions from the safety of my chair.
Yeah I agree on the moral point. I was more trying to say that I hope Hamas have clear political and military objectives and that its troops stick to achieving those objectives and not giving in to the temptation to get revenge.
I agree with that. I strongly oppose acting for revenge. Even from a strictly utilitarian perspective it's rarely productive. as previous, I'm not in a position to judge people who do, but I would hope they choose not to.
Dont they all have to do a round of military service.
Seems like a super effective way to make sure theyre all complicit in the genocide so none of them speak out.
did only see one car getting shot at in terms of "heinous masacers" on the civilians.
When you break into someone’s house, kill their family, imprison the survivors and seize their personal property any violence you receive after that is well deserved. Americans fantasize about killing home invaders all the time but suddenly have a change of heart when the victims are brown.
Reporter: @ExtremelyPotato@lemm.ee
Reason: Violene
Mod Decision: cry harder in my modbox shitlib
I know a guy with a Hebrew text tattoo at BJJ. That's going to be a weird moment if he brings this up. Is there any way to navigate the issue without inspiring anger like Jeremy Corbyn?
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1710632920950489167
“
just like the ruskies, Israel can end this violence any time by leaving”i'd say to him, hey dude you're in violation of leviticus 19:28, and then i'd choke him out.
Just because he has a Hebrew text tattoo doesn't mean he is Zionist. I'd try not to make any assumptions and keep an open mind.
honestly the fact that he has a tattoo in the first place is probably a sign that he may be on the more progressive leaning spectrum of Judaism in the first place.
basically don't assume he's gonna say horrible shit, I have lots of Jewish anti zionist comrades that are out there doing good work and supporting Palestinian liberation that would prefer to not be automatically lumped in like that. If he does say something horrible let him have it but give him a chance I guess?
That said they might not even be Jewish so YMMV lol.
honestly its kinda concerning that one of the first replies to this is to choke him out, despite the only evidence for his Zionism being a tat in Hebrew. Even in jest.
The IOF's bombing of Gaza at the moment is unceasing and barbaric, carrying out several massacres and leading to entire families martyred in a pathetic attempt to restore its broken "prestige" due to historic resistance advances.
The entity’s thirst for blood, punishment, and revenge on the Palestinian people becomes more apparent by the day. The IOF has increased the frequency of its indiscriminate targeting of homes in Gaza with no present resistance activity, leveling homes on residents' heads.
We know, as our readers know, that the people are the resistance and vice versa: it is the relationship between the sword and shield, the heart and arm. Every Palestinian struggles under the occupation. As this historic battle rages on, we know that the tactics of the occupation will evolve. They will continue to target homes regardless of the presence of resistance activity in an attempt to demoralize the Palestinian people, draw blood, and accelerate their genocide.
As this happens, it is our obligation to our principles that dictates we must not fall into the trap of distinguishing between armed resistance fighters and non-combatants, as every Palestinian has a role in the current state of affairs. Every martyr must be mourned, and every zionist strike must be seen for the crime that it is. We will not allow the occupier or Western media to dehumanize us by creating distinctions between a colonized people whose remained existence on their lands is "militant."
Every Palestinian is a civilian even if they hold arms. A settler is an aggressor, a soldier, and an occupier even if they are lounging on our occupied beaches. As the IOF calls up thousands of reserves, it is clear that all settlers are soldiers. There exists a colonizer and the colonized, an oppressed and the oppressor. The people cannot be dissociated from resistance, because we are in a constant state of resistance.
Certainly, an explosive response is coming.
This struggle has been imposed on us. To resist is to survive, and to resist is a right.
from https://t.me/PalestineResist/13782?single
