I'm not defending the SPD, that's what is so sad. You can't tell the difference between someone saying that something is complicated and someone saying that something is good.
Its no different than when libs flatten the entire 70 year history of the Soviet Union into "Stalin Bad". Do you think that being ignorant of history and intentionally avoiding independent thought, let alone immanent critique is a virtue? Have you ever even heard of dialectics?
Welcome to the kick party comrade, get yet shots in
Pierre Broue wrote the definitive book on the German revolution. Its kind of a doorstop but the events that surrounded the death of Rosa Luxemburg are not black and white. The Vorwarts siege was led by a mob of radical anarchists that was taken over by police infiltrators, not social democrats. You cant compare the SPD to anything anywhere in the world, the SPD was the most powerful party in Germany, they weren't even remotely comparable to DSA. And Rosa was in the SPD, she believed in the party until she was killed by police. People's entire life was contained in the party, it was incredible. But it got fucked up by power and capital. Just because Ebert was a member of the SPD doesn't make all social democrats Ebert. Well, unless someone want to have an excuse to kill leftists and then I guess any justification will do fine. I'm not even a social democrat but I'm in DSA so fuck me
That's interesting. I don't have that kind depth of knowledge about this. I'm not sure what you mean with events surrounding the death of Luxemburg not being "black and white." The SPD was against the KPD in the Spartacist uprising. They chose to side with the fascist in the Freikorps. Seems pretty straightforward in terms of where people stood, but I only have a general understanding.
If you can go more in depth I'd like to know.
I'm not even a social democrat but I'm in DSA so fuck me
I don't think there's a problem with being in DSA. Is there some controversy here I'm not aware of?
social democrats are liberals, only useful fighting fascism then should be immediately gotten rid of
The SPD was the party of Karl Marx. They had sports clubs, dances, all kinds of social programs, peoples entire social existence was wrapped up in the party. The Germany of the SPD was the Germany that gave gender affirming care to trans people, and opened the first hospital for trans people anywhere ever in history.
It was the vote for war that triggered the events of the German revolution. The KPD was in the SPD before like 1918 or 1919. Yeah they were social democrats, no they weren't principled. This was the party of Karl Kautsky as well. There were inherent contradictions, which people would realize if they took a critical view of actual history instead of repeating whatever some fed YouTuber says about it. Its the black and white uncritical view that is the mark of an online commie cosplayer.
I don't disagree the the SPD has an interesting and important history. But they did oppose the KPD and could not stop the later rise of fascism which is also part of their history. So i can also understand and don't disagree being highly critical of the SPD and Social Democracy more generally.
Thanks for the book recommendation, I'd like to learn more about that period and the SPD, and why the German Revolution failed.
if they took a critical view of actual history instead of repeating whatever some fed YouTuber says about it. Its the black and white uncritical view that is the mark of an online commie cosplayer.
I'm not sure what the hostility is about or toward. I mean fuck Breadtube and all, no one should take that seriously. But I don't think its that weird for communists to have a critical view of social democrats. I mean was Stalin a cosplayer when he said social democracy was objectively the left wing of fascism?
No its fine to criticize the SPD, as it is worthy of criticism. It is not principled however to lump DSA, which is full of many principled, dedicated communists in with the right wing of the SPD. I don't care about critiques of the SPD, I have no horse in that race. What I do care about is people with no actual understanding of what led to the death of Rosa Luxemburg, what caused the split with the SPD in the first place, just shunting us into the same category as the cops that murdered Rosa and Karl.
Germany was the most advanced industrial society of the time, and they had developed the most progressive working class. It had inherent contradictions that came to bear in 1917 when the SPD voted to fund the war. I want comrades to understand those contradictions so we can take those lessons and cautionary tales into our organizing. Instead I think people just want to look cool in front of other commies on the internet by repeating ahistorical garbage that collapses historic struggle into stark, discreet categories.
For example, Rosa and Karl Liebknecht knew the path the SPD was on, they knew the leadership was fat and happy on the top of the government all the way back in 1914. But they weren't prepared for the split in 1917. Why? Why didn't they prepare more, agitate more, connect more with the working class, build the power of the Spartacist league? Their failure to prepare for the catastrophe of the 1917 vote is one of many missed opportunities from that time.
Wrt Stalin he was pushing a political line based on his objective conditions, which he understood. And still he made a lot of mistakes. But at least he engaged in critique. What you just said isn't critique its a quote. Meaningless out of context, except as a shibboleth
If you have some patience and good faith, then your IRL organizing will go.much smoother I promise! https://www.marxists.org/archive/broue/1975/germrev/index.html
social democrats are liberals, only useful fighting fascism then should be immediately gotten rid of
Dsa is more of a big tent of socialist tendencies and succdems, and I think the succdems no longer have a majority coalition on the national committee
CPUSA merge when
Honestly the few cpusa members I know are really big into electoralism and helping democrats
There's only 4 in my city and at least one of them supports cops lmao
Hopefully never. Awful revisionist org.
Social democrats are not that useful for fighting fascism most of the time. They side with capital and therefore the fascists.
exactly
Removed by mod
what?
socdem socdemming, pay them no mind
I'm a communist you dork
Doesn't matter
i will read that book though, can you name the title, not just the author?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/broue/1975/germrev/index.html
thank you
Nothing is more liberal than uncritical categorization and condemnation.
For every time they were useful there are 3 times where they were harmfuul
Hey who was in charge of Germany when the Freikorps was established
Lemme guess, is it DSA? It must be DSA
I'm not defending the SPD, that's what is so sad. You can't tell the difference between someone saying that something is complicated and someone saying that something is good.
Its no different than when libs flatten the entire 70 year history of the Soviet Union into "Stalin Bad". Do you think that being ignorant of history and intentionally avoiding independent thought, let alone immanent critique is a virtue? Have you ever even heard of dialectics?
Welcome to the kick party comrade, get yet shots in
Are they even good for that? History seems to suggest they aren't
Won't read a book but you can't wait to purge me
What's the general idea of Broue's that's relevant here? I'm not familiar with them
Pierre Broue wrote the definitive book on the German revolution. Its kind of a doorstop but the events that surrounded the death of Rosa Luxemburg are not black and white. The Vorwarts siege was led by a mob of radical anarchists that was taken over by police infiltrators, not social democrats. You cant compare the SPD to anything anywhere in the world, the SPD was the most powerful party in Germany, they weren't even remotely comparable to DSA. And Rosa was in the SPD, she believed in the party until she was killed by police. People's entire life was contained in the party, it was incredible. But it got fucked up by power and capital. Just because Ebert was a member of the SPD doesn't make all social democrats Ebert. Well, unless someone want to have an excuse to kill leftists and then I guess any justification will do fine. I'm not even a social democrat but I'm in DSA so fuck me
She split with the party well before she was killed.
Yes the spartacists split in 1917 and she was killed in 1918
That's interesting. I don't have that kind depth of knowledge about this. I'm not sure what you mean with events surrounding the death of Luxemburg not being "black and white." The SPD was against the KPD in the Spartacist uprising. They chose to side with the fascist in the Freikorps. Seems pretty straightforward in terms of where people stood, but I only have a general understanding.
If you can go more in depth I'd like to know.
I don't think there's a problem with being in DSA. Is there some controversy here I'm not aware of?
I was responding to
The SPD was the party of Karl Marx. They had sports clubs, dances, all kinds of social programs, peoples entire social existence was wrapped up in the party. The Germany of the SPD was the Germany that gave gender affirming care to trans people, and opened the first hospital for trans people anywhere ever in history.
It was the vote for war that triggered the events of the German revolution. The KPD was in the SPD before like 1918 or 1919. Yeah they were social democrats, no they weren't principled. This was the party of Karl Kautsky as well. There were inherent contradictions, which people would realize if they took a critical view of actual history instead of repeating whatever some fed YouTuber says about it. Its the black and white uncritical view that is the mark of an online commie cosplayer.
I don't disagree the the SPD has an interesting and important history. But they did oppose the KPD and could not stop the later rise of fascism which is also part of their history. So i can also understand and don't disagree being highly critical of the SPD and Social Democracy more generally.
Thanks for the book recommendation, I'd like to learn more about that period and the SPD, and why the German Revolution failed.
I'm not sure what the hostility is about or toward. I mean fuck Breadtube and all, no one should take that seriously. But I don't think its that weird for communists to have a critical view of social democrats. I mean was Stalin a cosplayer when he said social democracy was objectively the left wing of fascism?
No its fine to criticize the SPD, as it is worthy of criticism. It is not principled however to lump DSA, which is full of many principled, dedicated communists in with the right wing of the SPD. I don't care about critiques of the SPD, I have no horse in that race. What I do care about is people with no actual understanding of what led to the death of Rosa Luxemburg, what caused the split with the SPD in the first place, just shunting us into the same category as the cops that murdered Rosa and Karl.
Germany was the most advanced industrial society of the time, and they had developed the most progressive working class. It had inherent contradictions that came to bear in 1917 when the SPD voted to fund the war. I want comrades to understand those contradictions so we can take those lessons and cautionary tales into our organizing. Instead I think people just want to look cool in front of other commies on the internet by repeating ahistorical garbage that collapses historic struggle into stark, discreet categories.
For example, Rosa and Karl Liebknecht knew the path the SPD was on, they knew the leadership was fat and happy on the top of the government all the way back in 1914. But they weren't prepared for the split in 1917. Why? Why didn't they prepare more, agitate more, connect more with the working class, build the power of the Spartacist league? Their failure to prepare for the catastrophe of the 1917 vote is one of many missed opportunities from that time.
Wrt Stalin he was pushing a political line based on his objective conditions, which he understood. And still he made a lot of mistakes. But at least he engaged in critique. What you just said isn't critique its a quote. Meaningless out of context, except as a shibboleth
smh this guy doesn't know Stalin watched youtube smh
you're not reactionary for being a marxist trying to work within a social democrat party- wait
fae said "drop a link" and i don't see a link
If you have some patience and good faith, then your IRL organizing will go.much smoother I promise! https://www.marxists.org/archive/broue/1975/germrev/index.html