What possible benefit is there to Spain to still hold on to Cueta and Melilla? If you're a leftist they represent vestiges of imperialism and should be given back to Morocco. If you're a reactionary you probably really want Spain to give them back to Morocco because they are major points-of-entry for refugees from Africa. There's probably something material I'm missing here.
A couple of reasons. They provide a partial counterweight to naval control of Gibraltar by the UK, the local population strongly opposes their integration with Morocco. They're major oil ports. Basically they're profitable, so the libs want to keep them.
For reactionaries, they're artifacts of the end of the Reconquista and Morocco has no claim because there was no Morocco, heck, there wasn't even the Ottomans in the area. Cetua's initial conquest (by Portugal, I think) actually predates the conquest of the final Muslim kingdom, and Melilla only post-dates by 5 years, so some revanchist debatelord might call them anti-colonial possessions and be wrong, but at least interestingly wrong.
Also, they have been spanish for like 400 years. Talking about "giving it back" to Morocco is insane. Hell, technicaly they predate Spain since most historians put the creation of the modern kingdom of Spain in the early XVIII century.
So no, this is not a HK or Puerto Rico situation. I guess it's a "bad look" to have a small city in a separate continent but that's just what it is.
The barbed wire should be removed thought. Fuck the government who put it there and all the ones who haven't removed it.
most historians put the creation of the modern kingdom of Spain in the early XVIII century
Due to the War of Spanish Succession? I've usually seen it dated to the late 15th century, around the unification of Castile and Aragon and the completion of the Reconquista. The latter also corresponds with the beginning of a worldwide Spanish Empire.
We should have a thread sometime about leftist takes on who has legitimate claims to where, and why. It's not just about large states arguing over who owns what enclave, either -- who's to say when a city or region can legitimately break away from a larger state?
Hmmm... I just assumed Melilla was like a military base but wikipedia says there's 86k people who live there, so admittedly more complicated than I assumed.
My understanding is that the populace itself is largely Spanish Catholics, but they're still dependant on Moroccan labor, but I haven't looked at it too much.
Northern Ireland has been thoroughly colonized by the British. It was established in such a way that it would be large enough to make the unionists dominant. Letting the northern Irish decide whether to remain British or Irish will lead to them choosing British, because many are the descendants of British colonisers and still benefit from British colonialism today.
So why should a colonising population be allowed to decide which state they belong to? Would it be fair for the American settlers to decide whether the land they conquered was native or American? Why should the colonisers be allowed to decide the fate of the colonised people's country?
Literally no one outside of this thread (filled with people who have just find out these cities exist) wants Melilla and Ceuta to join Morocco. Not the spanish leftists, not the people from the cities themselves, and not Morocco.
Hell, listen to what the locals say instead of trying to bring anglo politics into everything.
Its almost like you are ignoring the will of the people of Morocco who very visibly want to go in there, but citing Morocco's government will as if somehow legitimate.
The same government that hunts down those attempting to jump over those butchery walls with valleys of barbed wire, to keep the economic relationship of their elites with Spain.
Also you aren't a local of Melilla or Morocco, you were just born in one of the most vile colonialist empires this world has ever witnessed, and for unknown reason isn't ashamed of its terrible history. Your opinion on African land obtained during the colonialist period shouldn't be considered.
“The locals” aka the people residing in the privileged, heavily fortified zones excluding millions of people? Haha sure. Let’s listen to what the Israeli sellers have to say about Palestine too!
Holy shit, you didn't have to prove that you have never heard of those cities. They are among the poorest regions of Spain. DId you think they were like HK or what?
Pathetic, read something before wildly commenting.
What possible benefit is there to Spain to still hold on to Cueta and Melilla? If you're a leftist they represent vestiges of imperialism and should be given back to Morocco. If you're a reactionary you probably really want Spain to give them back to Morocco because they are major points-of-entry for refugees from Africa. There's probably something material I'm missing here.
A couple of reasons. They provide a partial counterweight to naval control of Gibraltar by the UK, the local population strongly opposes their integration with Morocco. They're major oil ports. Basically they're profitable, so the libs want to keep them.
For reactionaries, they're artifacts of the end of the Reconquista and Morocco has no claim because there was no Morocco, heck, there wasn't even the Ottomans in the area. Cetua's initial conquest (by Portugal, I think) actually predates the conquest of the final Muslim kingdom, and Melilla only post-dates by 5 years, so some revanchist debatelord might call them anti-colonial possessions and be wrong, but at least interestingly wrong.
Also, they have been spanish for like 400 years. Talking about "giving it back" to Morocco is insane. Hell, technicaly they predate Spain since most historians put the creation of the modern kingdom of Spain in the early XVIII century.
So no, this is not a HK or Puerto Rico situation. I guess it's a "bad look" to have a small city in a separate continent but that's just what it is.
The barbed wire should be removed thought. Fuck the government who put it there and all the ones who haven't removed it.
Due to the War of Spanish Succession? I've usually seen it dated to the late 15th century, around the unification of Castile and Aragon and the completion of the Reconquista. The latter also corresponds with the beginning of a worldwide Spanish Empire.
We should have a thread sometime about leftist takes on who has legitimate claims to where, and why. It's not just about large states arguing over who owns what enclave, either -- who's to say when a city or region can legitimately break away from a larger state?
If i remember correctly it's due to all the legal stuff Philip V did.
Everywhere should be as autonomous as possible. —the anarchists
Should they be given if the population wants to stay spanish and Morocco hasn't really said anything about it?
Hmmm... I just assumed Melilla was like a military base but wikipedia says there's 86k people who live there, so admittedly more complicated than I assumed.
It’s fortified like the occupied territories in Palestine.
Morocco wants them back.
My understanding is that the populace itself is largely Spanish Catholics, but they're still dependant on Moroccan labor, but I haven't looked at it too much.
Should Northern Ireland be given back to the Republic if they want to stay British and the Republic hasn't really said anything about it?
I'm spanish, that's why i can talk about Spain. My opinions about Ireland will obviously be lacking and i don't know why the should matter at all.
Let the northern irish decide for themselves.
Northern Ireland has been thoroughly colonized by the British. It was established in such a way that it would be large enough to make the unionists dominant. Letting the northern Irish decide whether to remain British or Irish will lead to them choosing British, because many are the descendants of British colonisers and still benefit from British colonialism today.
So why should a colonising population be allowed to decide which state they belong to? Would it be fair for the American settlers to decide whether the land they conquered was native or American? Why should the colonisers be allowed to decide the fate of the colonised people's country?
As i fucking said. I know about Spain, not NI.
Literally no one outside of this thread (filled with people who have just find out these cities exist) wants Melilla and Ceuta to join Morocco. Not the spanish leftists, not the people from the cities themselves, and not Morocco.
Hell, listen to what the locals say instead of trying to bring anglo politics into everything.
Its almost like you are ignoring the will of the people of Morocco who very visibly want to go in there, but citing Morocco's government will as if somehow legitimate.
The same government that hunts down those attempting to jump over those butchery walls with valleys of barbed wire, to keep the economic relationship of their elites with Spain.
Also you aren't a local of Melilla or Morocco, you were just born in one of the most vile colonialist empires this world has ever witnessed, and for unknown reason isn't ashamed of its terrible history. Your opinion on African land obtained during the colonialist period shouldn't be considered.
Whaaaaat.
Did you even read what i said? WTF.
When you cite Morocco, do you mean the people or the government?
What.
Why do you falsely state that the people of Morocco don't want to go in that area, when they very visibly do?
Holy shit, are you illiterate or something?
great argument. Good to know you oppose the will of the people of Morocco, but stand by what their government does.
You are the template colonizer spanish.
WTF
No, the people of Morocco don't want Melilla, fucking idiot.
do you think they jump the walls for fun?
“The locals” aka the people residing in the privileged, heavily fortified zones excluding millions of people? Haha sure. Let’s listen to what the Israeli sellers have to say about Palestine too!
Lmao, priviledged???
Holy shit, you didn't have to prove that you have never heard of those cities. They are among the poorest regions of Spain. DId you think they were like HK or what?
Pathetic, read something before wildly commenting.
Which side of the border is Ceuta and Melilla on? The side people are trying to get in to or get out of????
Cool, then let's remove the wall AS I FUCKING SAID.
:connolly-shining:
Yes
Either explain or fuck off.