Two layers of electrified, barbed wire, with armed guards to keep a colony secure. Colonialism has never actually ended
Hilarious how the Spanish are pissed about Gibraltar while having the same fucking thing on the exact other side.
Because they are completely different issues. Melilla and Ceuta have been spanish for 500 years and are normal cities.
Meanwhile Gibraltar is a tax haven, a resort for old brits and a tool used by Great Britain to dominate the Mediterranean sea.
Are they tax havens? Do the people there not have spanish citizenship?
They are barely not tax havens, with their corporate exemptions.
Also, is "non-tax haven" the definition of normal to you? Its a fucking colony with multiple layers of eletric fences and pits of barbed wire, jackass. To call that normal is accepting those attrocities, colonialist dipshit.
WTF, who the hell "accepted" those atrocities? I literally say in this thread that those have to go.
then why the fuck are you calling it normal? In this thread it appears you are defending european territory in Africa, as the most assholish of europeans do. Your colonialist country and its oversees territories deserve nothing but spite for what it did in the past and continues to do in the present.
Nah, that's the sahara, you know, the place currently occupied by Morocco where they are murdering tons of people after invading it in the 70s.
I don't think they're mad about the tax haven, I think they're mad about the territorial incursion.
What incursion? It has been there for 500 years and neither Morocco or Spain existed back then.
It should be part of Morocco. Duh.
When your fortress enclave gets questioned and you’re like “but it’s been there for so long!” Fucking lol.
Lmao, why.
Yeah sure, let's give them two cities that have been spanish for 500 years to the country currently occupying the Sahara and murdering everyone there.
Stop saying 500 years like its a reasonable argument. THE COLONIAL PERIOD WAS 500 YEARS AGO COLONIZER TRASH. Its a terrible argument in defense of european ownership of African land.
The Spanish exclave cities have been both casus belli and staging grounds for colonial wars on Morocco. Melilla was just a garrison until the Hispano-Moroccan war of 1860 after which they rapidly built a city.
The whole point of owning territory there is to control Mediterranean shipping, not to have a laugh on the beach.
Sure, as i said, it's a city, not a resort. Comparing it with all those turist cities for white people in third world countries is disingenous.
Ok but you get what Gibraltar is for? It's so they could shoot boats right? Same idea there, just a bit earlier. Gibraltar has a city too, I can put a city anywhere. Jamestown was a city.
What the fuck? Today I learned that Spain holds two cities on the African Mainland. Totally fucked.
Tbh honest I find the whole topic of countries owning little enclaves in other countries to be fascinating. Still evil, but also fascinating. Like you can even see in the map in the post how the UK holds on to a tiny little bit of Spain.
Enclaves makes maps more fun. I especially love that city on the Dutch-Belgiam border where there are like 20 different tiny enclaves because back in the middle ages different feudal lords owned different fields.
Yep, reminds me of how along the Mississippi River there are parts of states on the "wrong" side of the river because the river has changed course over the years, as rivers are know to do. There's even a town in Illinois (Kaskaskia) that's on the west bank of the Mississippi, so it's completely cut off from the rest of the state and can only be accessed via Missouri.
Point roberts is my favourite US one, it's next to Vancouver and you have to go through Canada to get there. There's also "the north-west angle"
I like how what could be sort of argued as the birthplace of modern Germany is now a little enclave of Russia completely separate from the rest of Russia.
Uk also has bits of... a lot of places. also in cyprus as well, if we are just talking Europe/mediterranean.
They also own the Canaries, islands off the west coast of Africa. Hell, they owned a huge chunk of Morocco for a while too.
colonialism is a fuck
Well, the "huge chunk of Morocco" that they owned is actually what now is referred to as Western Sahara, and Morocco's own claim to it is somewhat dubious since the Sahrawis claim indepence. But it is mostly under Moroccan control now.
Tons of people who have just found out about these cities talking about "giving them back to Morocco".
Holy shit, you can't just "give back" someone that was never their's (while ignoring what the people from those cities say).
Also, first Morocco should recognize the indepent Sahara. A movement that actually does exist and has been fighting for 50 years.
well if they're gonna recognize Western Sahara, they should also recognize the Rif hahaha
yes, western Sahara, but also the Rif (northern region) was also part of the spanish protectorate, and where Franco would get some of his soldiers from. The Rif is also dealing with their own shit with the Moroccan govt too regarding the Hirak.
They actually make Morocco do most of the patrolling in exchange for trade opportunities with the EU :agony-acid:
They recreated marches as border states
Perhaps imperialism truly is the highest stage of capitalism :thinkin-lenin:
The EU makes Turkey do the same. While they destroyed Syria and then refused refugees, they made Turkey take refugees in exchange for trade opportunities.
The European nations complained about taking a few thousand refugees. Turkey took in literal millions
European liberals doesn't like to see the violent practicalities of enforcing the border, so instead of doing it themselves, they outsource it.
Harsha Walia talks about this outsourcing of security in her recent book Border and Rule
Damn I’ve got to read this you plugging it a few times really convinced me
it's well done imo. I haven't finished it yet but have really been enjoying it.
A vassal state on the edge of an empire that basically guards the frontier to protect the empire’s heartland.
What possible benefit is there to Spain to still hold on to Cueta and Melilla? If you're a leftist they represent vestiges of imperialism and should be given back to Morocco. If you're a reactionary you probably really want Spain to give them back to Morocco because they are major points-of-entry for refugees from Africa. There's probably something material I'm missing here.
A couple of reasons. They provide a partial counterweight to naval control of Gibraltar by the UK, the local population strongly opposes their integration with Morocco. They're major oil ports. Basically they're profitable, so the libs want to keep them.
For reactionaries, they're artifacts of the end of the Reconquista and Morocco has no claim because there was no Morocco, heck, there wasn't even the Ottomans in the area. Cetua's initial conquest (by Portugal, I think) actually predates the conquest of the final Muslim kingdom, and Melilla only post-dates by 5 years, so some revanchist debatelord might call them anti-colonial possessions and be wrong, but at least interestingly wrong.
Also, they have been spanish for like 400 years. Talking about "giving it back" to Morocco is insane. Hell, technicaly they predate Spain since most historians put the creation of the modern kingdom of Spain in the early XVIII century.
So no, this is not a HK or Puerto Rico situation. I guess it's a "bad look" to have a small city in a separate continent but that's just what it is.
The barbed wire should be removed thought. Fuck the government who put it there and all the ones who haven't removed it.
most historians put the creation of the modern kingdom of Spain in the early XVIII century
Due to the War of Spanish Succession? I've usually seen it dated to the late 15th century, around the unification of Castile and Aragon and the completion of the Reconquista. The latter also corresponds with the beginning of a worldwide Spanish Empire.
We should have a thread sometime about leftist takes on who has legitimate claims to where, and why. It's not just about large states arguing over who owns what enclave, either -- who's to say when a city or region can legitimately break away from a larger state?
Should they be given if the population wants to stay spanish and Morocco hasn't really said anything about it?
Hmmm... I just assumed Melilla was like a military base but wikipedia says there's 86k people who live there, so admittedly more complicated than I assumed.
Morocco wants them back.
My understanding is that the populace itself is largely Spanish Catholics, but they're still dependant on Moroccan labor, but I haven't looked at it too much.
Should Northern Ireland be given back to the Republic if they want to stay British and the Republic hasn't really said anything about it?
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I'm spanish, that's why i can talk about Spain. My opinions about Ireland will obviously be lacking and i don't know why the should matter at all.
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Let the northern irish decide for themselves.
Northern Ireland has been thoroughly colonized by the British. It was established in such a way that it would be large enough to make the unionists dominant. Letting the northern Irish decide whether to remain British or Irish will lead to them choosing British, because many are the descendants of British colonisers and still benefit from British colonialism today.
So why should a colonising population be allowed to decide which state they belong to? Would it be fair for the American settlers to decide whether the land they conquered was native or American? Why should the colonisers be allowed to decide the fate of the colonised people's country?
As i fucking said. I know about Spain, not NI.
Literally no one outside of this thread (filled with people who have just find out these cities exist) wants Melilla and Ceuta to join Morocco. Not the spanish leftists, not the people from the cities themselves, and not Morocco.
Hell, listen to what the locals say instead of trying to bring anglo politics into everything.
“The locals” aka the people residing in the privileged, heavily fortified zones excluding millions of people? Haha sure. Let’s listen to what the Israeli sellers have to say about Palestine too!
Lmao, priviledged???
Holy shit, you didn't have to prove that you have never heard of those cities. They are among the poorest regions of Spain. DId you think they were like HK or what?
Pathetic, read something before wildly commenting.
Its almost like you are ignoring the will of the people of Morocco who very visibly want to go in there, but citing Morocco's government will as if somehow legitimate.
The same government that hunts down those attempting to jump over those butchery walls with valleys of barbed wire, to keep the economic relationship of their elites with Spain.
Also you aren't a local of Melilla or Morocco, you were just born in one of the most vile colonialist empires this world has ever witnessed, and for unknown reason isn't ashamed of its terrible history. Your opinion on African land obtained during the colonialist period shouldn't be considered.
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When I was doing my fieldwork, I made sure to go to both Ceuta and Melilla.
for Ceuta I crossed on foot from Tangier, but for Melilla I just flew in and out, and even that was a little messy with my visa issues.
it was strange, Melilla was like... dead? there just weren't that many people out doing anything. They also had like the last statue of Franco if that means anything.... also some nice art deco/old architecture that you don't really see in other places.
Ceuta was basically like any small 'european' mediterranean city. pretty fully 'europeanized' whereas Melilla still felt a lot more like Morocco in terms of architecture and the vibe and what languages you would hear and all that.
as an aside: if you read Border and Rule by Harsha Walia, she has a section, albeit not super detailed, about this border, but in general about the externalization/outsourcing of border security to non-european countries.
I have a relative that went to Morocco for 2 weeks and argued with me that that place didn't exist about a week after I had read a 300 page book about it. Finally I got so annoyed I handed her the book and she just glared at me and shut up. She's a massive lib and the worst.
I did my fieldwork in Spain/Morocco and the vast majority of people who travel to morocco are... kinda weird.
like there is such a weird version of orientalism/romanticism about that country.
Do your field work everywhere else and I think you will find a pattern.
But does everywhere else have a classic movie made about its largest city?
Secure = Free from desperate black people trying to flee conditions that slowly kill them.
How is this representative of social democracy, as opposed to a vestige of a literal empire or literal fascism?
https://youtu.be/LY_Yiu2U2Ts vox (yeah I watch vox I know) has a good video where you see how it looks and how they cross. It's of course the only way to walk into the EU from Africa so that's why it's a popular destination. Mayotte (french territory east of mainland Africa) has a similar thing with Comoros which is in the same archipelago
I remember something a few years ago where big mobs of refugees were breaching the walls
I've read your comments about it and you clearly haven't. Otherwise you wouldn't be calling one of the poorest regions of Spain "priviledged".
Yes, the Africa that Ceuta and Melilla are a part of, despite being governed by a European government. You are so deeply propagandized, you cannot see the similarities between the enclaves and Israeli settlements.
If your sole reason is "map look nice" you can fuckk off. You have not given a single reason for it. Imagine ignoring the will of the people of Ceuta and Melilla. Fuck off with your white saviour complex.
Why is the will of the people of Melilla above the will of the people in Morocco for you? hmmmmmm
Cool, go and find me who in Morocco wants Melilla back. Why do you assume their views, fucking white saviour?
Imagine defending first world countries over third world countries and thinking you are a leftist. You are the worst of white trash.
Damn, did the spanish left and all your "international community" friends take down ISIS?
You guys must be so competent and totally not a fucking joke of a colonialist nation. First worlders are such heroes.
