The answer to this question will decide whether I will continue with my current org. We have a couple hundred volunteers reporting to a lead that is paid an undisclosed amount from an undisclosed source
DSA collects dues, right? Any political org needs at least some paid bureaucracy and leadership so that it can be their full time gig. Although it should definitely be a matter of public record how much each position makes.
I think what makes me uneasy about this org is that not only does no one have no idea how much people above are being paid, we have no idea who is paying them to begin with. And they refuse to say
Definitely getting paid by democrats and FBI front organizations. I can see why they want to lie and keep getting a paycheck from their members, but not even saying where it's coming from? The only alternative I can think of is that some CPC agent or North Korean agent is funneling money to them, which would be kind of funny. Not trying to fan paranoia, but not disclosing the source is really fucking weird.
nah, the only people who get paid do so from dues. those staffers are liberal NGO types and they keep the rest of the org from turning further left. it doesn't require any external meddling to keep it in line.
I have no proof but I think DSA is, you know, compromised by stupidity at the higher levels. There are some good rank and file members, like in every organization, but I think their energy is ultimately diverted into nothing. I'd trust your similar instinct and avoid.
Now that I’m thinking back to this post, I might’ve completely misrepresented my position
In this non-DSA org, all of us have full time jobs aside from a few select people in the org and we don’t know how the fuck they’re doing this as a full time job.
Maybe that better illustrates the fuckery
This is incredibly shady to me. I would make a stink or leave depending on what you feel safe doing. Especially if you are a dues paying organization, it should be very clear where money comes from and goes.
Idk, but if they do they should have permanent positions and pay schedules in the charter or whatever. Bylaws? Bylaws. They should have that in the bylaws.
So there are paid staffers that do stuff for the national org, on paper they don't have organizational authority but as with all politics its more complicated than that. There is also a DSA NGO called DSAFund that has a board that is paid. That is a little shadier because it doesn't answer to anyone, again, no formal decision making power (except over money which aint nothing) but the individual members are all like lifelong organizers -good people but politics is complicated. DSAFund doesn't control the orgs money but they have a lot of their own.
The national paid staffers generally report to the National Planning Committee (NPC) which is the highest day to day authority, that is elected by the national delegation, elected reps from all over who vote on the major issues facing DSA (including NPC elections) which meets every 2 years (the last convention was in August.) NPC members are not paid, but its a very demanding role. I believe there are 17 members of the NPC. In August, the "left wing" of DSA (basically a bunch of caucuses) managed to elect a majority of left-marxists to the NPC, from orgs that want to push DSA more leftward and away from the Democrats. This is a whole huge debate, but if you look up "dirty break" or "clean break" then you'll find a ton of arguments for, against, and every which way. In short I think this is a good time to join DSA if you have a good local group to join. Even if not there are a lot of national committees that do good work.
Finally there are caucuses which often have paid staff members, as members will pay dues to both DSA and their caucus (dues waivers are also easy to get so don't let money be a deterrent.) Caucuses can have less than a dozen to over a hundred (or more) members, there's really no rules and they have only in the last few years become really prevalent. The caucus that I'm in holds elections every year for its paid staff, which I don't think gets paid very much or its part time.
DSA members are actually pretty ideologically committed to democratic and transparent process, paid staffers get paid from dues collected from members, and there is enough internal tension from various factions that it would be difficult (especially now) for a small cadre to take money and control the org. It's not set up for that to be possible, and any whiff of it would have thousands of pissed off Marxists and anarchists with who would make it politically impossible for them. Last convention the delegates voted to form a Democracy Commission to try and make the org even more transparent, accountable and democratic. We are voting on the members this week and everyone who made it to this level has years of organizing experience in all different ways.
Sorry its long if you have questions I was a delegate in 2023 and I've been active for about 3 years. Not as long as many but I've seen enough to speak on most topics re: DSA
Really value the time and effort that it took to type this response. I’m sure it will be very useful to others who feel similar to myself
No problem, it really is kind of mentally available cuz we have a lot of discussions around these issues. Feel free to reach out
The paid staffers have other jobs though, right? Like DSA isn’t their full-time job (it is in this org)
Very sus
I think it depends? A couple of years ago national hired a contractor to do some kind of campaign analysis (this was before the new left wing configuration of the NPC and a big reason we were able to get a majority) who got paid like a disgusting amount of money, and members went nuts and put an end to it. If we vote that a position should be part time or full time or how much it will pay, that's what the position entails. Not to say there is no funny business, but it is transparent. Its a big org so we can afford to have full time staff.
There is a local org that is like a split from a split from an old LaRouchite group that has fulltime staff and they're kind of a scam. And having fulltime paid organizers is an asset, take it from someone who just had a stress breakdown from working full time + family+ organizing. You want people who spend their best mental hours building your org. Even in our caucus, we publish a real nice slick mag and hold discussion groups in a bunch of topics including contacting international comrades. If someone wasn't working full time on that stuff we wouldn't be able to do any of it.
I would not like that there is no transparency about where the funding is coming from, hopefully its above board. Its one of the things that makes democratically structured orgs appealing. I mean it might not be that shady, they could be getting money from like the SEIU or something and not want to say, although you'd think you'd want to advertise that. But even so its a bad look
Concept of bureaucracy is made salient to area hexbear user; dissonance ensues
The Bolsheviks were all about having professional organizers. They weren't paid much, but they were paid.
DSA is fairly incompetent so this is a complimentary comparison to make.
I'd say that the key issue is the org structure itself and who, exactly, is getting paid. I've seen people grift money from lefty orgs before and throw quite the tantrums when it was discovered they didn't really do anything. There's also an awkward position to be in where you kind of control someone's livelihood but also need to have healthy criticism of the work they're doing, and sometimes it will need significant improvement. This is usually a matter of training and not their fault, but it's something that requires some finesse and social skills that a lot of people seem to lack for some reason.
Thanks, I think this really helps me out. Dealing with a sorta dark money deal that smells like the DNC and while I think they’re trying to do something good, this leader shuts down any ideas that conflict with the org’s agenda. Anyone pointing out root causes is not taken seriously, I might add. Most of this is local organizing (which is why I felt like I might be able to make a difference), but it’s starting to feel like we can’t question anything :/
I am starting to feel like a Christian spreading my religion, the only difference is that I can very well provide evidence for my claims
Sounds like a sketchy situation. In orgs where there's only like one paid staffer imo it should not be leadership getting paid, instead it should be staff doing the tiring work that nobody wants to do. This avoids the obvious conflict of interest in someone using their position of power in the org to get themselves paid.
If you're not already, I'd recommend out-organizing this "leader", which is to say, build your own side group to oppose this. Start with one-on-one conversations with the people who seem on board with you already.
Really appreciate the help. Oh I can tell you I already have some people on my side, so maybe something can be done :) Things get muddied though because it claims to be “neither democrat nor republican” so the opinions vary quite a bit
Professional organizer didn't literally mean they were paid btw
You may be thinking of the concept of professional revolutionaries, though they also tended to get paid because they'd have no time to hold down regular jobs.
How do I become a leader in your org? I want to be paid an undisclosed sum!
But see idk because didn’t I just describe every org that exists ever
an undisclosed amount from an undisclosed source
that's the fucky part. even like the IWW (a very anti-professional organizing org) has a couple paid staff. but they report to the elected governing body (not the other way around) and their salaries are public in the org.
The IWW is definitely cool for how the staff in GHQ operate.
The biggest donor to my former org (and leader) turned out to be an undercover FBI agent so yeah she was definitely getting paid but the money "came" from a fake job. Refusing to say almost makes me think they aren't feds because they set up their undercovers with a backstory usually, unless they just got lazy with y'all.
I'd insist on disclosure regardless, it is very suspicious for your leader to be getting mystery money. How could you not suspect corruption? They shouldn't be trying to hide that from their comrades and subordinates.
there's paid staff in the national org but everyone else are unpaid volunteers
Yes, there is a National staff and some chapters also have some paid staff. It’s a large part of the DSA’s budget but at least this information is available to DSA members.
That said, DSA reliance on staff is a point of contention within the org. Prior to this year, DSA’s leadership body was led by people who’s organizing experience largely comes from working in staff heavy NGOs. As such, they spent too much money on staff and now DSA is facing a budget crisis.
On the bright side, there is a Marxist wing of DSA that won a fragile majority on DSA’s national leadership body this year. I’m hoping they can make the organization more member driven at a national level. However, it remains to be seen if they’re able to pull that off.
If you have any questions about joining DSA dm me. It’s a “big tent” so it’s members identify as Marxist Leninists, Trotskyists, social democrats, anarchists, and everything in between. It’s also not very centralized so individual chapters can be very different. It’s a weird and sometimes frustrating place to organize. However, it can also be really rewarding depending on what you’re doing.
