President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Russia would be prepared to talk to Ukraine, the United States and Europe about the future of Ukraine if they wanted to, but that Moscow would defend its…
Let’s say you’re right (which has problems of its own I’ll address later) and that Ukraines’s democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn’t make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
This makes no sense, first you stake your position against the invasion because "Ukraine is a sovereign country" and then you turn around and say it doesn't matter that it's not sovereign. Pick one and stick to it.
yeah you said "which has problems of its own I’ll address later" but didn't address anything later, so instead i responded to what you said in that reply
The condition of the Ukrainian state is literally the crux of the entire conflict since 2014, what are you on about?
and that Ukraines's democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn't make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
It does when that subverted state begins to suppress ethnic minorities and political opposition, your argument rests on willful ignorance of the conflict and the Ukrainian state's actions in Donbass and the genocidal threats it regularly issues to Crimeans who DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER considered themselves Ukrainian
Sorry bud, but intervening in a vicious civil war brought about by the violent overthrow of an actual democratically elected government, is not the same thing as unprovoked aggression for the sake of land grabs as claimed by historically brain-dead liberals
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
SMO is just a technical political title for the operation, Putin's rhetoric concerning Crimea and the separatist states has been quite clearly centered on unification, independence referendums and international recognition for their secession from Ukraine
Are you asserting in the whole two years of this war Putin has never mentioned the separatist republics?????
I'm not sure how correcting the term that you repeatedly used is "whataboutism". Surely you meant something when you wrote "sovereign country" multiple times? It's just inaccurate, it would be like referring to the US as a kingdom or referring to Washington D.C. as a country.
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
Modern countries don't like to call their wars a war for some reason. The "Special Military Operation" labeling in particular is based Ukraine labeling their war against the Donbas Republics as an "Anti-Terrorist Operation". Russia did state that one of their goals was the liberation of the Donbas Republics.
And why wouldn't Russia use the same means to subvert their subversion instead of resorting to bombing civilians?
Russia is far worse at subverting countries than the US is. The US has massive experience in fomenting color revolutions in foreign countries, using NGOs to undermine foreign governments, and in supporting far-right movements within countries and using them to topple or put pressure on those hostile (to the US) governments. Russia did attempt to use diplomacy (for eight years) to stop Ukraine's bombing of civilians in Donbas but that didn't work out. Russia tried one last resort by diplomatically recognizing the Donbas Republics but that just caused Ukraine to start shelling the Donbas even harder.
Don't tell me....the verified evidence of countless war crimes are just propaganda right? For which you're going to offer no counter evidence.
All war is a crime and all wars come with war crimes. Some war crimes were committed by Russia, some were committed by Ukraine and then blamed on Russia, and some were pure atrocity propaganda that was just made up. The made up atrocity propaganda was so bad that the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) had to fire their commissioner for human rights. She was just spreading made-up atrocity propaganda and also wasn't bothering to organize the evacuation of civilians.
As for the accuracy of your accusation - do you have some sources? I'm interested to read and learn about your viewpoint. Assuming that it's not just your armchair intelligence briefing.
Here's an overview. Click the links to get details about the parts you're interested in.
The short version is that the National Endowment for Democracy (a CIA cut-out) has openly spent over $5 Billion dollars to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Do you remember how much the US freaked out over Prigozhin (Wagner guy) spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to "promote democracy" in the US? John McCain and Victoria Nuland openly met with the protestors and announced their full support and the backing of the US. Nuland had a leaked phone call where she was hand-selecting the new leader of Ukraine. The new Ukrainian Finance Minister become a Ukrainian citizen the very same day she was sworn in as Finance Minister.
As a bonus. Here's one of the guys that McCain met with.
Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]"). In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.
Tyahnybok is a prominent leader in the Ukrainian protests, so perhaps it was only right that McCain met with him as he did with the others (we reached out to McCain's office to find out how much he interacted with Tyahnybok, but have not heard back at the time of writing). You can defintely understand, however, why Jewish leaders in Ukraine and abroad are concerned about him.
It's actually from Northern Ireland! Everybody thinks the phrase came from the US during the cold war but it didn't.
According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[13] the term originated in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts", people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy:
Their enemy in this case is the Black and Tans and the British Army and their supposed wrongdoings are the reprisal killings they committed against Irish civilians.
thanks, I'll ammend my jokes accordingly. Also nice to know that it was always a thought terminating cliche to defend state approved violence over the violence of the oppressed
Did you ever notice these Russian invasions of "sovereign" countries always occurs right on their borders and in the places where NATO is planning to establish a presence? I wonder if this had anything to do with safeguarding Russian sovereignty? I guess we'll never know. If only there was a historical record of what NATO did to Russia (and Ukraine) in the late 80s and the 90s.
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lmao
Lmao. I stop reading there. That word automatically makes no longer care about someone's opinion
This makes no sense, first you stake your position against the invasion because "Ukraine is a sovereign country" and then you turn around and say it doesn't matter that it's not sovereign. Pick one and stick to it.
Read it again, that's not what I said.
yeah you said "which has problems of its own I’ll address later" but didn't address anything later, so instead i responded to what you said in that reply
The lib you're responding to is an idiot and wrong, but I think they are just doing a counterfactual there.
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The condition of the Ukrainian state is literally the crux of the entire conflict since 2014, what are you on about?
It does when that subverted state begins to suppress ethnic minorities and political opposition, your argument rests on willful ignorance of the conflict and the Ukrainian state's actions in Donbass and the genocidal threats it regularly issues to Crimeans who DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER considered themselves Ukrainian
Sorry bud, but intervening in a vicious civil war brought about by the violent overthrow of an actual democratically elected government, is not the same thing as unprovoked aggression for the sake of land grabs as claimed by historically brain-dead liberals
SMO is just a technical political title for the operation, Putin's rhetoric concerning Crimea and the separatist states has been quite clearly centered on unification, independence referendums and international recognition for their secession from Ukraine
Are you asserting in the whole two years of this war Putin has never mentioned the separatist republics?????
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
I'm not sure how correcting the term that you repeatedly used is "whataboutism". Surely you meant something when you wrote "sovereign country" multiple times? It's just inaccurate, it would be like referring to the US as a kingdom or referring to Washington D.C. as a country.
Modern countries don't like to call their wars a war for some reason. The "Special Military Operation" labeling in particular is based Ukraine labeling their war against the Donbas Republics as an "Anti-Terrorist Operation". Russia did state that one of their goals was the liberation of the Donbas Republics.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-first-phase-ukraine-operation-mostly-complete-focus-now-donbass-2022-03-25/
Russia is far worse at subverting countries than the US is. The US has massive experience in fomenting color revolutions in foreign countries, using NGOs to undermine foreign governments, and in supporting far-right movements within countries and using them to topple or put pressure on those hostile (to the US) governments. Russia did attempt to use diplomacy (for eight years) to stop Ukraine's bombing of civilians in Donbas but that didn't work out. Russia tried one last resort by diplomatically recognizing the Donbas Republics but that just caused Ukraine to start shelling the Donbas even harder.
All war is a crime and all wars come with war crimes. Some war crimes were committed by Russia, some were committed by Ukraine and then blamed on Russia, and some were pure atrocity propaganda that was just made up. The made up atrocity propaganda was so bad that the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) had to fire their commissioner for human rights. She was just spreading made-up atrocity propaganda and also wasn't bothering to organize the evacuation of civilians.
https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680
Here's an overview. Click the links to get details about the parts you're interested in.
https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine
The short version is that the National Endowment for Democracy (a CIA cut-out) has openly spent over $5 Billion dollars to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Do you remember how much the US freaked out over Prigozhin (Wagner guy) spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to "promote democracy" in the US? John McCain and Victoria Nuland openly met with the protestors and announced their full support and the backing of the US. Nuland had a leaked phone call where she was hand-selecting the new leader of Ukraine. The new Ukrainian Finance Minister become a Ukrainian citizen the very same day she was sworn in as Finance Minister.
As a bonus. Here's one of the guys that McCain met with.
https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12
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Read it now coward
It's been 40 minutes, please respnd
True. Actual whataboutism is only from the Whatabout region of France
It's actually from Northern Ireland! Everybody thinks the phrase came from the US during the cold war but it didn't.
Their enemy in this case is the Black and Tans and the British Army and their supposed wrongdoings are the reprisal killings they committed against Irish civilians.
Did you ever notice these Russian invasions of "sovereign" countries always occurs right on their borders and in the places where NATO is planning to establish a presence? I wonder if this had anything to do with safeguarding Russian sovereignty? I guess we'll never know. If only there was a historical record of what NATO did to Russia (and Ukraine) in the late 80s and the 90s.
Or you could just show us your dick.