The Russians appear willing to make concessions. This is a skillful ploy to put us off our guard.
The quote
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
-- Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Hasn't this been Russia's position the entire time? I've only ever seen them actively trying to have peace negotiations over the past decade, much to the chagrin and mockery of Ukraine and the West who declare it either SUBTERFUGE or WEAKNESS.
This headline in a western news outlet is, to me, more of an indicator to me that the West is now bored with this proxy war, wants to end it and is looking to save face.
Is that what you call invading a sovereign country?
It's not even like this is the first time Putin has invaded another sovereign country,
Ukraine isn't a sovereign country and hasn't been since the US couped their democratically elected leader. You can't be a sovereign country if a foreign country has veto power over your elections.
Lmao. I stop reading there. That word automatically makes no longer care about someone's opinion
Let’s say you’re right (which has problems of its own I’ll address later) and that Ukraines’s democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn’t make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
This makes no sense, first you stake your position against the invasion because "Ukraine is a sovereign country" and then you turn around and say it doesn't matter that it's not sovereign. Pick one and stick to it.
yeah you said "which has problems of its own I’ll address later" but didn't address anything later, so instead i responded to what you said in that reply
The lib you're responding to is an idiot and wrong, but I think they are just doing a counterfactual there.
This is just elevated whataboutism
The condition of the Ukrainian state is literally the crux of the entire conflict since 2014, what are you on about?
and that Ukraines's democracy has been subverted by USA, that doesn't make a military invasion and armed occupancy a righteous or even justifiable act.
It does when that subverted state begins to suppress ethnic minorities and political opposition, your argument rests on willful ignorance of the conflict and the Ukrainian state's actions in Donbass and the genocidal threats it regularly issues to Crimeans who DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER considered themselves Ukrainian
Sorry bud, but intervening in a vicious civil war brought about by the violent overthrow of an actual democratically elected government, is not the same thing as unprovoked aggression for the sake of land grabs as claimed by historically brain-dead liberals
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
SMO is just a technical political title for the operation, Putin's rhetoric concerning Crimea and the separatist states has been quite clearly centered on unification, independence referendums and international recognition for their secession from Ukraine
Are you asserting in the whole two years of this war Putin has never mentioned the separatist republics?????
This is just elevated whataboutism
I'm not sure how correcting the term that you repeatedly used is "whataboutism". Surely you meant something when you wrote "sovereign country" multiple times? It's just inaccurate, it would be like referring to the US as a kingdom or referring to Washington D.C. as a country.
Why doesn't Putin just say that? Why would he insist on mislabelling this as an "SMO" instead of a war of liberation?
Modern countries don't like to call their wars a war for some reason. The "Special Military Operation" labeling in particular is based Ukraine labeling their war against the Donbas Republics as an "Anti-Terrorist Operation". Russia did state that one of their goals was the liberation of the Donbas Republics.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-first-phase-ukraine-operation-mostly-complete-focus-now-donbass-2022-03-25/
And why wouldn't Russia use the same means to subvert their subversion instead of resorting to bombing civilians?
Russia is far worse at subverting countries than the US is. The US has massive experience in fomenting color revolutions in foreign countries, using NGOs to undermine foreign governments, and in supporting far-right movements within countries and using them to topple or put pressure on those hostile (to the US) governments. Russia did attempt to use diplomacy (for eight years) to stop Ukraine's bombing of civilians in Donbas but that didn't work out. Russia tried one last resort by diplomatically recognizing the Donbas Republics but that just caused Ukraine to start shelling the Donbas even harder.
Don't tell me....the verified evidence of countless war crimes are just propaganda right? For which you're going to offer no counter evidence.
All war is a crime and all wars come with war crimes. Some war crimes were committed by Russia, some were committed by Ukraine and then blamed on Russia, and some were pure atrocity propaganda that was just made up. The made up atrocity propaganda was so bad that the Ukrainian Rada (parliament) had to fire their commissioner for human rights. She was just spreading made-up atrocity propaganda and also wasn't bothering to organize the evacuation of civilians.
https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680
As for the accuracy of your accusation - do you have some sources? I'm interested to read and learn about your viewpoint. Assuming that it's not just your armchair intelligence briefing.
Here's an overview. Click the links to get details about the parts you're interested in.
https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine
The short version is that the National Endowment for Democracy (a CIA cut-out) has openly spent over $5 Billion dollars to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Do you remember how much the US freaked out over Prigozhin (Wagner guy) spending a hundred thousand dollars in order to "promote democracy" in the US? John McCain and Victoria Nuland openly met with the protestors and announced their full support and the backing of the US. Nuland had a leaked phone call where she was hand-selecting the new leader of Ukraine. The new Ukrainian Finance Minister become a Ukrainian citizen the very same day she was sworn in as Finance Minister.
As a bonus. Here's one of the guys that McCain met with.
Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]"). In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.
Tyahnybok is a prominent leader in the Ukrainian protests, so perhaps it was only right that McCain met with him as he did with the others (we reached out to McCain's office to find out how much he interacted with Tyahnybok, but have not heard back at the time of writing). You can defintely understand, however, why Jewish leaders in Ukraine and abroad are concerned about him.
https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12
This is just elevated whataboutism
True. Actual whataboutism is only from the Whatabout region of France
Whatabout region of France
It's actually from Northern Ireland! Everybody thinks the phrase came from the US during the cold war but it didn't.
According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[13] the term originated in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts", people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy:
Their enemy in this case is the Black and Tans and the British Army and their supposed wrongdoings are the reprisal killings they committed against Irish civilians.
thanks, I'll ammend my jokes accordingly. Also nice to know that it was always a thought terminating cliche to defend state approved violence over the violence of the oppressed
Did you ever notice these Russian invasions of "sovereign" countries always occurs right on their borders and in the places where NATO is planning to establish a presence? I wonder if this had anything to do with safeguarding Russian sovereignty? I guess we'll never know. If only there was a historical record of what NATO did to Russia (and Ukraine) in the late 80s and the 90s.
Or you could just show us your dick.
I need to gauge your level of connection to material reality so I don't waste my time talking to a Blue MAGA cultist
Dead tied, huh? Total standstill? I wonder if the available evidence supports this conclusion.
Because if it didn't, we might have to conclude that you're either propagandized to the point of delusion, or being dishonest.
do you think you'd have the same opinion if the casualty numbers were the same but ukraine managed to take back land to the 1991 borders?
I didn't. Re-read my comment; this was purely hypothetical.
As we all know, no one one won either of the World Wars. Being the bloodiest conflicts in history, they are furthest from the possibility of having a victor.
are you saying 1m people have died in the russian ukraine war??? thats 10x more than I'm seeing reported ANYWHERE what the fuck are you talking about. Its barely 10x more people than have been killed in palestine in the last month, are you deranged?
Depending on the estimate, about 2.5 million people died in the Vietnam War, but Vietnam definitely still won.
I thought keyboard warriors were those who put time and importance on the act of explaining and arguing online? I just told you to shut up and fuck off, loser
Because Hitler also only wanted peace
Nice try Ruzzian shill, but we true defenders of liberal democracy know that Nazis are the good guys now, and RUSSIA is like the Nazis, who weren't so bad really because they were fighting Russia, who is like the damn Nazis, who actually weren't so bad bec
You're supposed to do a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus so you don't get stuck in simple loops.
A picture speaks a thousand words. So that must mean this picture speaks 1006 words.
I take your point though - I could be brainwashed by the propaganda. As could you. And we're both certain that we're not. Except my country actually has a free press, doesn't imprison detractors, and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed.
The west doesn't really need to do much propaganda - dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself.
I think you should take a look at your own post.
Except my country actually has a free press
6 companies control all media in America
doesn’t imprison detractors
Julian Assange, and when they don't imprison them they just straight up murder them like they did with Gary Webb
and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed
Like the incubator babies? Or maybe you mean Iraq's WMDs
The west doesn’t really need to do much propaganda
lol, lmao
dropping bombs on cities, targeting civilian buildings and infrastructure, and launching a full scale invasion of a sovereign country speaks for itself
"The West" does all of this
Whataboutism, incorrect, and childish. Why on earth did you bother with this reply?
You claimed the West has free press and doesn't imprison detractors, I gave you 3 examples of how this is not true, how is this "whataboutism"?
Assuming of course you have unfettered access to the internet like I do.
Do you? Click this link to find out: https://rt.com
It's blocked in the European Union, so a lot of people in "The West" do not have access to it.
Okay, what is this country that wouldn't imprison Julian Assange? I don't think it exists. I think you live in a country that would have imprisoned Assange and Edward Snowden.
Which would make you a hypocrite.
Whataboutism was originally used to defend Jim Crow any time the Soviet Union brought up how
is an apartheid stateWhataboutism is an inherently thought terminating idea, to not be able to compare two similar things is downright anti human
No it may be worse than that, even insects can compare two things
Says a lot more about you that you even use that as an argument
The problem with your logic is that "they did it first, so we're going to do it second" leads to a never ending cycle of violence.
I'm not saying it didn't happen, or doesn't matter because it's the West, I'm just saying that "west bad" is a fucking shit reason to kill 1m people invading another country.
If you shouldn't respond to bad faith with bad faith, what is the solution?
No, I'm asking you for a solution to what you called a "problem with our logic".
The problem with your logic is that "they did it first, so we're going to do it second" leads to a never ending cycle of violence.
If you shouldn't respond to bad faith with bad faith, what should you do?
Except my country actually has a free press
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/all-lies-how-the-us-military-covered-up-gunning-down-two-journalists-in-iraq
Too many replies in this thread to read the article. Could you just summarise your point and I'll read it if I don't believe you?
Are you expecting people to take you seriously when you can't read a few dozen pages? Aren't you an adult?
That an adult should be able to devote the attention span to read about something they pretend to care about, instead of demanding to be spoon-fed. That's what you're asking for, "can you break my food down for me first".
I'm capable of writing articles like these in practically no time at all. Instead of begrudging free information that's suppressed by our fucking government with propaganda, why don't you crack it open? But you'd rather be a child like every redditor and complain about being handed real solid gold.
Hey look, the guy who's pretending to know shit and refusing to read what people reply with is talking about wasting people's time!
pretending to know shit and refusing to read
The essence of modern liberalism
Youtube — John McCain and Lindsay Graham tell neo nazis to cement the damage done by the 2014 coup and be their holy warriors against Russia https://youtube.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg
https://invidious.no-logs.com/watch?v=lMMvSiVkjfg YT mirror for convenience
They went and electrocuted babushkas through the kidneys. They build grandmas different in Donetsk so she kept on fighting. Online Ukraine supporters don't have it in them. I'm surprised you haven't moved back to trashing 🇻🇪 or something alteady considering things are going south. https://sputnikglobe.com/20230721/the-truth-about-ukrainian-war-crimes-against-donbass-civilians-1112031958.html
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/12/11/ukrainian-maidan-massacre-false-flag/
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2023/07/17/the-lord-of-the-underworld-meet-the-paratrooper-from-north-carolina-who-orchestrated-the-war-in-ukraine/
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2023/02/03/how-a-network-of-nazi-propagandists-helped-lay-the-groundwork-for-the-war-in-ukraine/
https://mronline.org/2022/06/13/how-monsters-who-beat-jews-to-death-in-1944-became-americas-favorite-freedom-fighters-in-1945/
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Before we begin wading through laborious examples of Ukrainian fake news, and their own deliberate terror bombing of civilians in Donetsk since they rebelled against the post-Maidan government, here's a forensic takedown of the Bucha lie by the same guy who did the article I linked about the Maidan.
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/04/06/was-alleged-russian-army-massacre-of-civilians-at-bucha-actually-a-false-flag-event-staged-by-ukrainian-nazis/
A simple look at the way Israel operates reveals what terror bombing against urban areas, rather than attacks calculated to limit casualties to limit the international & domestic fallout of Russian intervention in Ukraine, actually looks like. And it resembles exactly how the Ukrainians have used precision missiles to attack concerts and homes and community centers. It's disgusting. The numbers speak for themselves, but thankfully we have enormous eyewitness accounts in Gaza and Donetsk of the horror. Western sources reported on it before we decided to go hard against Russia and it was reserved for people like Patrick Lancaster.
Except my country actually has a free press, doesn't imprison detractors, and has released the verifiable evidence of war crimes being committed
Is that what you call invading a sovereign country?
Yes? The April peace proposal was about NATO expansion and the separatist republics. Ukraine probably could have successfully countered with the federal Ukraine model proposed and agreed to in the Minsk agreements.
2022 was probably too late to agree to follow the Minsk agreements. If Ukraine wanted to do that it should have done so during the preceding eight years. At that point Russia was correct to push for disarmament and and maybe a DMZ.
The west appears to have exactly the same policy they have had the entire time also - and that is: leave the sovereign territory of the other nation, and there will be peace.
And when Russia points out its really conspicuous how this is a standard only ever applied to them?
Russia says its their territory, Ukraine says its there's. At this point there are literally only three options.
-
Recognize Russia claim, cede the land, end the war and ukraine can go forward with the territory they have now. (Maybe they can even think about allowing opposition political parties and elections at some point.)
-
Don't recognize Russia claim, keep doing whatbwere doing and, as the west loves to say "fight to the last ukrainian". Then there will be nobody left in Ukraine and Russia can take all of it (or Ukraine like, takes off weights and reveals it actually has more capacity to fight then they've been letting on for the whole counter offensive)
-
Other countries back Ukraines claim and get directly involved in fighting Russia in a hot war, putin, Xi, and Biden grt to fight over the nuclear ashes.
Which of those would you prefer, because the solution I keep seeing from liberals "Russia decides to stop for no apparent reason, gives up goes home and gives all the land back" is not actually a realistic or even feasible outcome.
So I really want to know, which of the three real world options would you prefer, and again "I wave a magic wand and Russia gives up and goes home" is not one of them.
More whataboutism. You can't use one atrocity to justify another, otherwise you're justifying them all. That would be atrocious.
Why have you ruled out 1 option yet didn't rule out Ukraine doing exactly what you're saying Russia can't do? Seems like you've been brainwashed.
I dont know what the answer is; but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing. I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying. If Russia suddenly has some legitimate territorial claim then it should settle it through diplomacy, not with the blood of millions.
I also think it's up to Ukraine to choose what it does, and everyone should support that decision. Currently only the west seems to support it...and because Russia hasn't had its way its throwing its toys out the pram and trying to settle it with the blood of millions of innocents.
Just because you made up a new word for hypocrisyndoesnt mean you're not being a hypocrite.
Love that liberals somehow convinced themselves that by saying "you pointing out my hypocrisy absolved me" works on anybody but them.
I dont know what the answer is;
Yea we know, that's kind of the entire point of our argument is that you don't have any solutions other than literally Russia gets bored and goes home for absolutely no reason. It's also why we keep saying you aren't serious people who are even dealing with the realities of the situation.
but I do know that a million dead Russians and Ukrainians is an awful thing.
No you clearly don't because you get super pissed whenever somebody suggest you stop sending people to die for no reason.
I also know that Russia started the military action and could at any time return to its own territory and stop the dying
So literally right back to magically thinking again.
I know that if a super hot movie star started dating me that would be the end of my "not having a famous celebrity girlfriend" problem.
But the same question applies to both scenarios, why in a million years would that ever possibly happen.
So, once again, after trying to have a discussion about the actual realites of the situation liberals go with ignoring reality, saying it's bad when Russia does it but you can't point out we do it all the time, and the solution is for Russia to just give up on a war they're winning and cede territory they say is there's for LITERALLY NO REASON OTHER THAN MAKING DUMBSHIT HYPOCRITICAL LIBERALS MORE SMUG. A goal every ukraine flag emoji account I've ever seen is willing to sacrifice every single ukranina life to accomplish.
hypocrisyndoesnt
Speaking of new words.
Whataboutism isn't absolution and I have nothing to be absolved of. I don't defend war mongering on behalf of any country. Unlike the replies in this thread.
Being against the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation does not make me a Liberal, I'm sorry that doesn't align with your narrative.
you get super pissed whenever somebody suggest you stop sending people to die for no reason
What's wrong with you? What makes you think I've sent anyone to die? For any reason? And got pissed about it?? Do you think I'm the Ukrainian president or something?
Russia gets bored and goes home for absolutely no reason
Yet another example of making shit up to fit your narrative. You could equally frame it as "Russia realises that invading another country is wrong and withdraws". Both as equally as unlikely as any of your suggestions. In all liklihood there will be some other solution that allows the main parties to save face and hopefully stops the killing. I'm sure you want people to stop dying too.
As for your last paragraph of barely cohesive babble - none of that is remotely accurate. I'm not a Liberal, I'm not as naive as some people to think I can suggest or predict a solution, I don't think you "can't" point out atrocities by the west - I'm just saying "but they did it first" is a shit reason to kill 1m people.
And why on earth would I need to choose one of your solutions to this monstrous invasion? My viewpoint is that the imperialists should go back to their own country and stop butchering civilians. I don't give a shit why they do it. I'd rather we got there yesterday and less people died...but if the only way to stop the aggressive and unjustified invasion is to drive them back militarily then I guess that's what has to be done. Because your options are shit.
Lmao ohh no one slight and obvious typo totally invalidates what I said.
I'm done reading these page long works of fiction. You need to chose one of my options because those are the only ones that there is a greater than 0% chance of happening.
Or you can keep screaming "Russia should abandon a two year long military campaign now that they're winning to appease whiny liberals"
As usual we'll be over here continuing to say "hey look it's exactly what we said was going to happen" while you tell us we don't know what we're talking about.
but if the only way to stop the aggressive and unjustified invasion is to drive them back militarily then I guess that's what has to be done.
So what you're saying is that you are a war mongering donkey brained lib but you're slightly embarrassed about it? Really you should be more embarrassed, you're pathetic
Good luck with that loser, your little nazi pals have already lost
Show
This you bro?
You think there's still a chance for
to win anything, you aren't a serious person and don't deserve more than my worstI guess we've found your intellectual range.
Go back to reddit dork
You can't use one atrocity to justify another, otherwise you're justifying them all. That would be atrocious.
smh making puns at a time like this...
It's very obviously a pun. The only question is if it was intentional.
-
invading
Shut the fuck up NATO pig you fucking babykiller
I wouldn't have predicted it but Russia somehow did not take the L in this war, not that the eort of Russian collapse the west hoped for was ever feasible. I will say Hamas getting Ukraine thrown off the US military aid number one priority position was a sweet bonus for Russia. And it also shows the logistical issues in maintaining an empire. You can't cover the globe despite how insane you might be. Power to the Houthis
I hope this is just preparation for a victory lap, maybe even just mocking them now because a lot of (pro-Russia) analysts already came to a conclusion the current borders are far from sufficient. Likewise it is almost impossible to conceive Ukraine will cede unoccupied territory so again, I'm not sure what he is trying to do here other than to take a piss.
The pre-war goals, the most important being NATO neutrality? You'd be a damn fool to believe this will be enforceable without Russian troops sitting within 15km of Kiev for the rest of eternity or something like that.
I hope this is just preparation for a victory lap
Nothing about this shit-show deserves a victory lap. It was the bloodiest and most pointless mass immolation of life and livelihood since Iraq. At the absolute best, Russians get to claim a charnel house littered with depleted uranium. More likely, they'll be doing anti-insurgency across the country for decades, while the rest of Europe grows increasingly fascist and racist towards Slavs.
I'm not sure what he is trying to do here other than to take a piss
All wars are just a prelude to diplomacy. I think Putin is putting out interest now so he looks better on the international stage, before Biden loses the White House and Republicans come to the settlement table ready to kick this under the rug so they can pivot back to China.
The pre-war goals, the most important being NATO neutrality?
NATO gets to come out of this with more money, more members, and a renewed mandate to battle its age-old nemesis. I think NATO general staff might be the ONLY folks coming out of this for the best. Maybe with the exception of the Chinese, who have finally broken through the old Sino-Soviet split and as senior partners to boot.
You'd be a damn fool to believe this will be enforceable without Russian troops sitting within 15km of Kiev for the rest of eternity or something like that.
I don't know how many Ukrainians are left standing to do the next Pickett's Charge into Russian artillery fire. And given how easily Russian artillery has demolished critical infrastructure in and around Kiev, I hardly think they need to be west of Brovary to pose a threat.
The enforcement comes from Russian artillery placements. Donetsk will be at least as secure as Pyongyang.
It was the bloodiest and most pointless mass immolation of life and livelihood since Iraq
That's crazy, how was this more pointless than Libya, Donbas, Afghanistan, Armenia, or Palestine? More bloody sure, but Russia's reasons for entering are justifiable for national security
Don't tell me that Russia thought getting sanctioned by the rest of the entire world and entering a proxy war in a massive country was somehow expected to be a net economic gain like everything the West has done since Iraq
That's crazy, how was this more pointless than Libya, Donbas, Afghanistan, Armenia, or Palestine?
Strictly by volume. I don't believe any of those reached the scale of the Russia Ukraine war in the comparatively brief time period.
More likely, they'll be doing anti-insurgency across the country for decades, while the rest of Europe grows increasingly fascist and racist towards Slavs.
Not sure what your point here is, they were dealing with the Ukrainian nazis shelling donbass for almost a decade already, at least now there is a path towards some sort of normalcy while before there wasn't? Like I'm not sure your point here this is very much a big victory for the Russian ethnic in eastern Ukraine.
You also don't seem to realize Russian popular sentiment is already very invested into the outcome of this war. It is why Putin can't be too soft, its why he was criticized when the Azov prisoners were exchanged even by regular right wing/nationalists. War support in Russia is not just a leftist cause and Russia will take pride in their "victory".
Of course that doesn't discount the human cost at all, but as I said the human cost was already there counted in the amount of missiles and shells hitting Donest city every day before the war.
The rest of EU? Everything is contingent on US support, nobody else has an army nor an economy to wage war and while they may be racist towards Slavs this is nothing but a mere continuation of the cold war.
But even more so Europe was always as much fighting among themselves as with outsiders, the EU neoliberal project is barely a generation old and the post-WW2 "normalcy" came at the cost of Germans bombing French and English/vice-versa to hell. Of course the capitalists on both sides were spared but my point is such "unity" is fickle at best historicaly it doesn't take much for European countries to go to war against each other. Also remember how Spain/Greece/Italy got fucked in 2008 by German backed EU economic policies?
The same thing will keep happening. The racism against non-whites is barely a stop gap measure, EU fascism will turn inwards first before worrying about geopolitical issues. Anyway its not like said Italian or French fascist got any military power to do anything without US help anyway. Best they can do is continue to persecute non-whites/the poor at home.
they were dealing with the Ukrainian nazis shelling donbass for almost a decade already
The scale of conflict has escalated significantly since then. Casualties are in the hundreds of thousands.
You also don't seem to realize Russian popular sentiment is already very invested into the outcome of this war.
American popular sentiment was very invested in the outcome of the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars two years into those conflicts. I don't think that works in their favor. On the contrary, they're exposed to a backlash if they do any kind of withdrawal or suffer another nasty run of casualties or tie the conflict back to a new economic downturn.
Everything is contingent on US support, nobody else has an army nor an economy to wage war and while they may be racist towards Slavs this is nothing but a mere continuation of the cold war.
For the time being. But a big role of the Bush Era State Department and beyond has been prodding EU/Middle Eastern states to arm up and get into these territorial fights. Turning European and Arab allies (and more recently Pacific states) into armed outgrowths of the US-based MIC. As fascist movements throughout Central Europe build up in popularity, and as states ramp up the size and scope of their domestic police forces, its easy to see conflict accelerate into border clashes and then open war.
That's exactly what happened in Ukraine between 2006 and 2021. First, police forces ramped up. Then the conflict flared up into a decade long civil war. Finally, as the western bloc gained territory in Donetsk and the fighting spilled over the border, the conflict went international.
Why would this not happen in Poland or Hungary or Italy or Germany? Turkey is already in the thick of it and could easily be the next domino to fall. Syria almost tipped into civil war and international conflict thanks to US interventions. There's nothing magical about these Western states that would prevent pogroms against Africans, Arabs, Slavs, and other Asian cohorts (particularly the Chinese) that would in turn flare up into wholesale street fighting and eventual interstate conflicts.
The same thing will keep happening.
I absolutely agree. But I don't think the Russia-Urkaine war backstopped any of it. I only see it as the latest in a string of border classes and ethnic purges that Europeans will be conducting for the next century.
EU fascism will turn inwards first before worrying about geopolitical issues
Fascism never just stops inside the borders of a state. As soon as refugees start fleeing the state and businesses suffer and neighboring territories see attacks on their ex-pats as an attack on themselves, the conflict grows in scope.
Russia-Ukraine is the model for the future.
It was the bloodiest and most pointless mass immolation of life and livelihood since Iraq.
It was the worst war since this other war ended 77 days before
I haven’t finished thinking about it, but the idea of land redistribution to veterans as a way to stabilize the initial occupation of the western ukraine is interesting if nothing else.
Russia is screwed either way.
With China reconciling with the US after realizing that Russia’s tiny market simply could not absorb the loss of export to the US, it is clear that Russia will get the short end of the stick moving forward as China refuses to decouple from the US. Together with the demise of BRICS, with India pulling away and Argentina going its own way, Putin knows that Russia has to make concessions now or they will get even shittier deal if they wait longer.
It is fair to say that Russia and China have failed to bring down the empire. The world simply isn’t ready for it yet.
What? Where the fuck did you get the idea that China wants to decouple from the US? Or from anyone for that matter?
China hasn't been involved in any of this shit. Bring down the empire? China doesn't have to bring down the empire, it's in decline and it's never going to stop that decline. China just simply has to exist and it will rise to the top without an unprecedented intervention that the west is simply incapable of performing. America is already on the path the British empire was and will not reverse that.
I don't know where you've gotten these ideas from but they're just flat out wrong.
I've only been lurking and reading, not really speaking up about it but that's kinda the trend I notice with their posts. A lot of them just come off as "USA stronk and Biden 5000 IQ 5-D Chess strategic mastermind, USA set to eviscerate and humiliate China and set in
thousandinfinite year reich. China weak, ineffective and pathetic and hopeless, USA only makes it look like China has a chance out of pity." That's not actually what they're saying of course, but I'm just exaggerating for the reason stated below:It's actually seriously getting on my nerves.
Patriots are in control.
It really is instructive how much liberal messaging has become bluMAGAified.
That’s not what I’m saying and I’m sorry if it came across that way to you.
I know a lot of people here can’t wait to see the US empire eating shit. Indeed, I have often said that China and Russia were on their way of checkmating the US empire back in 2022, but for whatever reasons they stopped doing what they were doing and so much wasted opportunities this year allowed the global hegemon to breathe and regain its strengths.
Once you start to see the high level play of the US imperialists, it gets incredibly scary. Too many people see a senile president, a fumbling military operation and think the empire is crumbling into its own demise, but the empire’s spider web is cast far wider and deeper, and its bite far more venomous than most are seeing right now. Blink and you’ll miss it.
China reconciling with the US after realizing that Russia’s tiny market simply could not absorb the loss of export to the US
What are your trying to say here? It reads like you're claiming that China tried to stop exporting to the USA (when?) and didn't know that Russia was a smaller economy than the USA (why?) and then found it out.
Your first comment is wrong from beginning to end and when questioned about it you retreat into vague language about "high level play" and spider webs.
What loss of export to the US?
(wrote that before reading the rest of the comment; it has too many mistakes to easily list; wrong from beginning to end really)
With China reconciling with the US
Name a single relevant and concrete concession, policy change or backstep China has taken in the last couple of months in context of this "reconciling with the US" that noticably diverges from their behavior 6 months or 12 months ago. Xi visiting the US and saying "lets all coexist peacefully mmmkey?" or signing some deal for soybeans or whatever doesnt sell the story to me
What is there to talk about? When Russia GTFO of Ukraine the war is over.
Like a stubborn child trying to bash their head through a wall.
Do it again! You're almost through!
Why are liberals so excited to have a genocide in the Donbas?
And what should be done with the majority Russian areas who legally can't speak their language and who have artillery shells blasted into their cities by the Azov Batallion?
When are you going to grow up and join the real world? Repeating this shit over and over again doesn't make it any less realistic, bordering on complete and total fantasy.
What you are actually saying when you say this is that you are happy to see tens of thousands of people die for dumbass lines on a map, because you care about dumbass lines on a map and the states more than human beings. Your priorities lie in nationalism, not people's lives. I'd go so far as to call it ultra-nationalism given the level of delusion you people are now stooping to in order to throw yet more bodies into the grinder.
This all could have ended before Boris put a stop to negotiations. And it would have ended with exactly the same outcome that we're going to get now, except with hundreds of thousands fewer deaths that you lot were happy to see.
And it would have ended with exactly the same outcome that we're going to get now
Not really. Ukraine would have been able to retain the Donbas and they wouldn’t be living in a wrecked nation with a trillion dollars in destroyed infrastructure. Russia was basically only asking they stop attacking the Donbas, recognize their rights, and Russia would retain Crimea.
Interesting how brave reddit warriors ready to join the international brigades suddenly went silent after they got rekt by missiles lmao.
You either have brain of a small child, or you have the reasoning skills of a chimp.
And if Russia doesn't decide to abandon a 2 year war effort they appear to be winning by all recent assessments and go home for absolutely no discernable reason what's plan B, ask Santa for it?
Brother that’s not going to happen. Russia is taking a big fat 21st century shit on Ukraine right now.
But I was told Obama got us out of there, CNN said so!
So if Russia installs a new government in Ukraine and that new government allowed the Russian army to be there, would that be ok?
The Iraqi government the U.S. installed when they invaded in the first place?
The previous government had running infrastructure, hospitals, electricity, clean water, etc. before the American regime bombed them and plunged the region into chaos so as to install puppet governments that allowed the U.S regime to pillage their resources and inflate the stock portfolios of the war criminals that run the American regime.
Zero justification for supporting the actions of the American terrorist regime.
praising of a genocidal dictator
um nobody here is praising Joe Biden
Who was Saddam's top allies during the Anfal campaign? Who gave him the gas? Like all neocon propagandists you're completely full of shit and yet you have the fuckin gall to open your filthy mouth and talk about genocidal dictator this and that after what the US did to Iraq, go fuck yourself shitlib
Right, Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden's bullets, bombs, and depleted uranium thatve killed and displaced millions of Iraqi citizens are obviously much better.
Isn't worshipping the lesser of two evils you liberal demons whole political ideology?
So you think the guy who killed millions is better than the guy who killed thousands? You think the guy who killed millions is the lesser of two evils?
Why might that be? Does it have something to do with the people killed?
The American autocrats you worship did an order of magnitude more evil than Sadam ever could.
Its just to prove the point that this cowardly disgusting sack of shit would never own up to it
Now what's your opinion on the state of Ukraine. Or the USA while we're at it.
You're really conflating seething hatred for America destroying a country with praise for Saddam Hussein? You reactionaries really can't see in anything beyond binary terms, can you?
Saddam was fucking atrocious, but Iraq had working infrastructure under him (and his rise to power was aided by the US, so he was another pawn)
They had that torn apart courtesy of America and are only just building back
Sorry, we're all out of empathy here in the west. Try getting better bootstraps, thirdworlders.
No I got no love for what the US and the allies did to Iraq, but what good is the the running water they had for the dead Kurds? From the start, my argument was they are better off now. Not that they are in paradise now.
Better off how? I pointed out their power grid is shit, their water table is contaminated, their buildings are bombed out, and everything but their oil has been privatized. Materially, they're fucked 3 ways to Sunday.
If you're trying to still make digs about 'supporting Saddam killing Kurds' or w/e, I'll point out again that Saddam had the full backing of the US until Kuwait
And you can get rid of people like him without invading the country and tearing it asunder
It's almost like european powers pit ethnic groups against eachother to destabilize resource-rich regions.
The Americans did not care about the people Saddam killed, and they killed millions more Iraqis then he ever did, you're a delusional racist and a war worshiping dipshit
It's true, the number of times i heard "glass the middle east" as a child comprehensively destroyed for me the idea of america as a force for anything good, and of americans as an aggregate being anything but a swarm of stupid bloodthirsty assholes once they get activated.
I have hope for the individuals, but as a collective identity? No more American, the world does not need American.
Apparently this bozo's feelings
Motherfucker is acting like all libs, like this is some marvel movie shit to them where after the US got Saddam, all the 'good guys' stood on top of a building in downtown Baghdad at night and said 'We have hope now' and then the credits rolled
They forgot this is real life
Yes I'm sure the Kurds situation has been improved greatly by not having running water or electricity.
By the way, who gave Saddam that gas?The dead Kurds are better off now? Did you use a medium to survey them?
The Kurds killed with chemical weapon technology supplied by the US? The killings that the US tried to frame Iran for? After which the US refused to sanction Iraq and continued to provide dual-use technology to Iraq.
Those dead Kurds?
China should missile strike american water plants, what good is the running water americans have for the indigenous people they genocided?
Jan 6th is America's Libya moment, and China should missile strike the US airforce and establish a no-fly zone over North America to insure the U.S. regime can't kill their insurgents
Then why are you fucking defending their presence there like five minutes ago?
They don't have functional infrastructure 20 years after the war and they did under Saddam. You really think the US was interested in anything besides cannibalizing the country for resources?
edit: Oh yeah, they were interested in one other thing: handing lucrative ”rebuilding” contracts to corporations like Halliburton with direct ties to the Bush admin.
Hey quick question, what's worse: opposing the US empire, or being the US empire and giving Saddam Hussein chemical weapons to attack Iran?
What the fuck? There isn’t a single word of praise for any thing or anyone in that comment are you this fucking delusional???
Now the praising of a genocidal
What your feelings on the state of Israel?
"oh shid oh fuck I wandered outside my echo chamber oh shiiiiiiiii"
I'm with you. It's not fair to make judgments based on the material reality of people's lives. You clearly said the word dictator, which means bad guy from an exotic locale. You won the argument. What are all these commies talking about?
The Iraq war and the aftermath probably killed more Iraqis than Saddam's entire reign.
Fucking libs, man. Give them the slightest push against their preconceived notions and they immediately start slinging shit instead of relating to the arguments at hand.
"Hey here's some facts about how life was measurably better before we bombed the shit out of Iraq".
"Whatever you love Saddam".You would have supported the Iraq war. You would have supported the Vietnam war. You would have supported the Kent state shootings. You would have eagerly reported local communists during the red scare.
Please acquire some critical thinking skills you cretin
I remember when "Saddam lover" was something libs made fun of right wingers for throwing out willy nilly
Then Obama got elected and suddenly anyone who even asks questions about Syria is an Assad lover
Bitch, you're the one saying the genocidal slaughter and immiseration of millions of Iraqis is a good thing.
Iraq's power grid took until 2008 to return to the capacity it could generate prior to the first Gulf War over a decade and a half prior where the US needlessly destroyed their power grid, and it still can't meet demand in the summer
It has depleted uranium in it's groundwater from American munitions
It had ISIS/ISIL attack it
Millions were displaced, hundreds of thousands were killed, and it got privatized into oblivion by IMF/World bank loans with greedy contractors like Halliburton licking their chops
I'm pretty sure it is much worse then it was pre American involvement
There's plenty of shitty government around the world, including a bunch the US actively supports. It doesn't give the US the right to kick the door down and subject the people there to more instability and violence to further their geopolitical goals under the guise of "humanitarianism".
The yank has an opinion on what constitutes democracy
So if Russia installs a regime better than the current one, their invasion is ok then?
Also lol at not knowing the USA installed the Iraqi government.
Is the American army allowed to be in Syria by the Syrian government too?
The topic is foreign interventions, Syria is about as relevant to that topic as you can get. You know this, you are intentionally avoiding engaging with his question cuz you know you don't have an answer that won't come off as a massive fucking stretch.
I'm sorry you think Iraq was worse off before the US and allies came in and murdered 2million people? Are you real?
You are a genuine monster.
Remember when America starved and killed the children if Iraq to the number of a hundred million at least with sanctions? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Also fun fact, Iraqis born in the 90's are significantly more likely to die of preventable causes and diseases, covid, than other people because if the permanent damage the sanctions caused to their development.
Damn I kinda wish I could have seen what this jackass commented before the mods took it down
You claim to want to stay on topic, but bring up people like "Tom" and "John". Curious!
(No well guy emoji? Wtf?)
Finding some emojis has a very "ordering off the secret menu" vibe.
China's life expectancy is higher than America's, and is still rising while ours fàlls.
I wish I could live in China, have you seen their infrastructure? Have you seen their cities? Have you seen what they invest in?
Idunno what you said, but I think you should fuck off for all eternity because you’re a Reddit brained loser
sure: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/10/were-staying-us-tells-iraq-after-being-asked-leave
Which they installed?
Like compare and contrast three events:
Maidan - january 6 in usa
Syrian civil war - ukraine civil war
Invasion of ukraine - invasion of sector gaza
Do the internal logic of events is similar? Which ones gets sanctioned, and which ones gets ignored?
The American army is allowed to be there by the Iraqi government?
That is such a lie
The Iraqi government literally voted to have America withdraw and was ignored
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/1/5/iraqi-parliament-calls-for-expulsion-of-foreign-troops
lol
Liberals are constantly out of date on the most basic of information if it's anything to outside of american borders. By literal years.
Msnbc and colbert didn't include that in their explanation of why every country in the world other than America is wrong so liberals wouldn't know about it.
Hey don't forget about John Oliver, where would libs be without him?
He at least shits on dems for comedic effect which I realize is still useless but makes him 10x better than people pretending Kamela is effective and popular.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/05/world/soleimani-us-iran-attack/index.html
Alright, who upbeared this loser? Show yourself, not funny even as a bit
I was just thinking recently that I'm super happy with Hexbears maintaining party lines on upbears when it matters, it does make the exceptions stand out.
whataboutism 
