I don't think waiting for better sources in unreasonable. If it's true, then it's cringe and shouldn't be justified, no doubt.
We saw this in the abortion thread, where people got big mad and then it turned out to be misrepresentation of the source document.
Edit: to be clear, the sissy men thing was and is cringe, but it's not a lot of detail to go on. One line in Sixth Tone doesn't justify accepting whatever western media says.
Edit 2: lot of back and forth below here, so I'm just gonna clarify my point again in this top comment: the sissy ban thing is bad, but separate from the relationship ban discussed in OP, for which there is (as far as I can tell) no evidence as of now and which would be much worse.
I'm the one who got """big mad,""" and it didn't "turn out" to be a misrepresentation, I was aware of the misrepresentation from the start, but I still believed that there was cause for criticism, regarding the grain of truth which the article had exaggerated.
I also want to point out that it was exactly this issue that caused me to be more skeptical of people on here dismissing criticism of China's social policies, because it became apparent that people are really eager to make it look like China never ever does anything bad, regardless of reality. Perhaps I overreacted in the abortion thread, but if so, it's because shit like this broke my trust in this site with regards to social issues in China.
One line in Sixth Tone doesn't mean we should accept everything Western media says, but it does give enough information to say that it's bad.
Well, you weren't the only one who got mad IIRC, but yes, that's my point. On account of the fact that it turned out to be totally baseless, and the "grain of truth" was that one region in China (with the worst gender imbalance) had created abortion restrictions in the 20ish years since the "reduce abortion" line had been added to the document in question. IE, clearly the document did not mean "abortion restrictions inbound".
One line in Sixth Tone doesn’t mean we should accept everything Western media says, but it does give enough information to say that it’s bad.
I agree the "sissy men" thing is bad, and should be reevaluated by the party. However, the subject of the thread is that China is banning Queer people in video games and, as of now, there's not enough evidence to substantiate it. It's possible that it's true - China can and does do bad things, but we should err on the side of waiting for solid evidence and analysis.
Given that the increasing crackdown against "sissy men" aesthetics seems to be getting solid pushback in China anyways, I'm fairly hopeful this whole direction will be reevaluated.
I'm not going to relitigate the abortion thread, but I stand by my position that there are reasonable fears about it.
There is sufficient evidence to show that China is expressing a commitment to ban effeminate men from video games which is bad and deserving of criticism.
Given that the increasing crackdown against “sissy men” aesthetics seems to be getting solid pushback in China anyways, I’m fairly hopeful this whole direction will be reevaluated.
Well then, I guess I'm gonna keep criticizing the move on social media then??
I meant criticism from Chinese citizens, lol. They clearly do not care about Hexbear, this site only affects its (mostly American) audience.
I disagree with you about the abortion thing, based on the evidence that was provided in that thread (edit: as I said, the line the press were malding about had been there for like 20 years without a crackdown). But I don't want to relitigate it either, so let's let it rest.
"There's some evidence China is suppressing effeminate characters in video games" isn't the same as "this western article's analysis of that evidence as 'gay people banned from Chinese games' is credible, let's argue about it". There are currently games in China with effeminate characters, if the western take is correct in this instance, then we'll know soon enough. Plus, Sixth Tone is bound to have articles about it shortly, this is right in their typical sphere of coverage.
I meant criticism from Chinese citizens, lol. They clearly do not care about Hexbear, this site only affects its (mostly American) audience.
The US government doesn't care about Hexbear either, though. My point is that criticizing a policy before it happens is totally valid. To the extent that I have a voice, I would prefer to use said voice in opposition to bad things.
“There’s some evidence China is suppressing effeminate characters in video games” isn’t the same as “this western article’s analysis of that evidence as ‘gay people banned from Chinese games’ is credible, let’s argue about it”.
Who said that? All I've been saying is that there's enough that's been confirmed as true to conclude that it's bad.
All I’ve been saying is that there’s enough that’s been confirmed as true to conclude that it’s bad.
If this is all you're saying, I agree with you. The "sissy aesthetic" thing is bad, and needs to be reevaluated.
Edit: all I'm saying is that that doesn't necessarily mean the framing and extrapolation in western articles is correct. If we agree on that, I'm pretty sure we're not even arguing here.
Yeah my disagreement was with OP dismissing it as "fake," when there's evidence that some of it has been confirmed true and none of it has been confirmed false.
I agree OPs being an ass in this thread, but a new claim is beiing made about China in the OP (banning queer people from games) and the evidence advanced in this thread so far doesn't substantiate it.
The leaked document is out there, we won't have to wait long for analysis from a more credible source. I'll wait until then to make my criticisms.
The document also expressed its commitment to combating so-called sissy men and danmei — risqué online fan fiction — as well as traffic-oriented content in the gaming industry.
I feel like I must be speaking a different language from you. A document expressing a commitment to ban sissy men from video games clearly substantiates the claim that China is looking to ban queer characters from video games.
What I'm saying is the "sissy aesthetic" stuff is different from banning same sex relationships, which is the subject of this thread. The former has been covered, is true, and is bad. The latter bans queer characters generally, and would be considerably worse.
China posted cringe, also I just played Eastward which was published in Shanghai and has several effeminate characters. If that game gets censored or pulled then I'll believe the news.
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I don't think waiting for better sources in unreasonable. If it's true, then it's cringe and shouldn't be justified, no doubt.
We saw this in the abortion thread, where people got big mad and then it turned out to be misrepresentation of the source document.
Edit: to be clear, the sissy men thing was and is cringe, but it's not a lot of detail to go on. One line in Sixth Tone doesn't justify accepting whatever western media says.
Edit 2: lot of back and forth below here, so I'm just gonna clarify my point again in this top comment: the sissy ban thing is bad, but separate from the relationship ban discussed in OP, for which there is (as far as I can tell) no evidence as of now and which would be much worse.
I'm the one who got """big mad,""" and it didn't "turn out" to be a misrepresentation, I was aware of the misrepresentation from the start, but I still believed that there was cause for criticism, regarding the grain of truth which the article had exaggerated.
I also want to point out that it was exactly this issue that caused me to be more skeptical of people on here dismissing criticism of China's social policies, because it became apparent that people are really eager to make it look like China never ever does anything bad, regardless of reality. Perhaps I overreacted in the abortion thread, but if so, it's because shit like this broke my trust in this site with regards to social issues in China.
One line in Sixth Tone doesn't mean we should accept everything Western media says, but it does give enough information to say that it's bad.
Well, you weren't the only one who got mad IIRC, but yes, that's my point. On account of the fact that it turned out to be totally baseless, and the "grain of truth" was that one region in China (with the worst gender imbalance) had created abortion restrictions in the 20ish years since the "reduce abortion" line had been added to the document in question. IE, clearly the document did not mean "abortion restrictions inbound".
I agree the "sissy men" thing is bad, and should be reevaluated by the party. However, the subject of the thread is that China is banning Queer people in video games and, as of now, there's not enough evidence to substantiate it. It's possible that it's true - China can and does do bad things, but we should err on the side of waiting for solid evidence and analysis.
Given that the increasing crackdown against "sissy men" aesthetics seems to be getting solid pushback in China anyways, I'm fairly hopeful this whole direction will be reevaluated.
I'm not going to relitigate the abortion thread, but I stand by my position that there are reasonable fears about it.
There is sufficient evidence to show that China is expressing a commitment to ban effeminate men from video games which is bad and deserving of criticism.
Well then, I guess I'm gonna keep criticizing the move on social media then??
I meant criticism from Chinese citizens, lol. They clearly do not care about Hexbear, this site only affects its (mostly American) audience.
I disagree with you about the abortion thing, based on the evidence that was provided in that thread (edit: as I said, the line the press were malding about had been there for like 20 years without a crackdown). But I don't want to relitigate it either, so let's let it rest.
"There's some evidence China is suppressing effeminate characters in video games" isn't the same as "this western article's analysis of that evidence as 'gay people banned from Chinese games' is credible, let's argue about it". There are currently games in China with effeminate characters, if the western take is correct in this instance, then we'll know soon enough. Plus, Sixth Tone is bound to have articles about it shortly, this is right in their typical sphere of coverage.
The US government doesn't care about Hexbear either, though. My point is that criticizing a policy before it happens is totally valid. To the extent that I have a voice, I would prefer to use said voice in opposition to bad things.
Who said that? All I've been saying is that there's enough that's been confirmed as true to conclude that it's bad.
If this is all you're saying, I agree with you. The "sissy aesthetic" thing is bad, and needs to be reevaluated.
Edit: all I'm saying is that that doesn't necessarily mean the framing and extrapolation in western articles is correct. If we agree on that, I'm pretty sure we're not even arguing here.
Yeah my disagreement was with OP dismissing it as "fake," when there's evidence that some of it has been confirmed true and none of it has been confirmed false.
I agree OPs being an ass in this thread, but a new claim is beiing made about China in the OP (banning queer people from games) and the evidence advanced in this thread so far doesn't substantiate it.
The leaked document is out there, we won't have to wait long for analysis from a more credible source. I'll wait until then to make my criticisms.
I feel like I must be speaking a different language from you. A document expressing a commitment to ban sissy men from video games clearly substantiates the claim that China is looking to ban queer characters from video games.
What I'm saying is the "sissy aesthetic" stuff is different from banning same sex relationships, which is the subject of this thread. The former has been covered, is true, and is bad. The latter bans queer characters generally, and would be considerably worse.
China posted cringe, also I just played Eastward which was published in Shanghai and has several effeminate characters. If that game gets censored or pulled then I'll believe the news.