What are everyone's thoughts, feelings, opinions about both the old and new Evangelion series?
4.0 SPOILERS
I thought the rebuild ending was more depressing than EoE, partly because when given the power to create LITERALLY ANYTHING, Shinji goes ahead and creates a copy of THIS WORLD (evidenced by the use of a live action shot in the end), where he will live as a capitalist salaryman with his literal waifu.
At least in EoE everyone could choose to come out of instrumentality by themselves to create a new world, thus leaving everything ambiguous.
Pure ideology, Mark Fisher is vindicated yet again.
They also couldn't go 5 MINUTES without showing some 14 year old girl ass....
spoiler content
I have never found any of the endings (original series, EoE, or Rebuild) depressing. The entire thesis of Evangelion, the original series, EoE, and all of Rebuild, has always been about stepping out of the warm, umbilical embrace of escapist fantasy into the bright, harsh light of the real world, and Rebuild hammered that point home so hard that Anno used live-action footage as a visual metaphor in that final scene. It was never about Shinji's self-actualization, it was about the audience's. Shinji's ultimate happiness was only intended to convey that there are things which make the real world, despite its faults and difficulties, worth inhabiting. They didn't need to create a world better than our own, that would be yet another retreat into fantasy. We don't live in global communism, and we can't build it if we spend all day dreaming instead of acting.
I also think it was the kindest presentation all of the characters have been given in any form. We got a chance to understand and empathize with Gendo, of all people.
has always been about stepping out of the warm, umbilical embrace of escapist fantasy into the bright, harsh light of the real world
I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the original Evangelion series having such a didactic message towards the audience. Such a message would require us to view the characters of Evangelion through the traditional "hero/villain, good/evil" moralistic lens, which I think takes away much of the nuance and humanity within the show. In applying such a message, we graft the archetype of the Shounen Protagonist onto Shinji and seeing how he fails to live up to this ideal instead of seeing the utter horror of the situation he is in within "realistic" terms. Furthermore, if we were to interpret a message from Evangelion, it would probably be more of self-compassion/self-love exactly due to this rejection of the Shounen archetype. There is simply not enough solid evidence within the show to claim that it has such a moral.
Shinji’s ultimate happiness was only intended to convey that there are things which make the real world, despite its faults and difficulties, worth inhabiting.
Like a salaryman job and a girlfriend pulled directly from the wet dreams of a 12 year old anime fan? I fail to see how the ending of Rebuild 4.0 validates such a thesis. Moreover, I disagree that the Rebuilds have the liscence to take a "god's eye" view of life, humanity, and this world completely divorced from the basic fact that we all live under neoliberal capitalist hegemony and make unclouded judgements on the very nature of human life. All the elements that make Shinji "happy" within the rebuild ending are only valid as such under the current order (mainly the salaryman job), not some grand universal secret that makes life worth living. This is just capitalist realism.
I also think it was the kindest presentation all of the characters have been given in any form. We got a chance to understand and empathize with Gendo, of all people.
Nah they shafted Asuka hard by reducing her to a psycho clone instead of giving her a proper backstory like in the originals, now she's literally just fanservice and a vehicle to drive Shinji to fulfill his destiny or whatever. Furthermore, they shafted Shinji by framing his reluctance to pilot the Evangelions as a grand moralistic failing in the 1st and 2nd rebuilds instead of highlighting the abject horror of being a child soldier fighting biblically accurate angels like in the original.
And this is the problem with the rebuilds, Gendo being some dude who was lonely and depressed makes less sense than his portrayal as a conniving psychopath in the originals. Just because someone is asocial doesn't automatically make them this evil bastard who neglects their child and acts as a running dog for the deep state.
I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the original Evangelion series having such a didactic message towards the audience.
Then you strongly disagree with Anno on that one, he's been pretty consistent when speaking about the themes these past 25 years. The original has an episode titled Hedgehog's Dilemma near the end of the first act, blatantly spelling it out. Anno's answer to the posited dilemma has always been an emphatic "other people are what makes life worth living".
All the elements that make Shinji “happy” within the rebuild ending are only valid as such under the current order (mainly the salaryman job), not some grand universal secret that makes life worth living. This is just capitalist realism.
The "grand universal secret" is spelled out pretty clearly in Anno's answer to the hedgehog's dilemma. Capitalist realism, in the context of the ending of 3.0+1.0, would be if Shinji remade everything exactly as it was, with Evas and NERV and the angels and all of the conflict inherent in that, because that is already the metaphor for the real world within the larger meta-framework of the narrative.
I gotta get to sleep so I'll write up a longer response to this tomorrow, but it sounds like you're considering the rebuilds as if they are meant to be understood separately from the original series instead of being complementary. They build off of one another, Asuka's development in the original is still important to your understanding of who she is in the rebuilds.
Then you strongly disagree with Anno on that one,
Well yes. Because I think the original Evangelion series is far too complicated to draw any sort of morality from, its art, something truly open to interpretation.
...you’re considering the rebuilds as if they are meant to be understood separately from the original series instead of being complementary
Yes again, there is no substantive consistency between the rebuilds and the original series imo. They just improved the form and hollowed out all substance.
Capitalist realism, in the context of the ending of 3.0+1.0, would be if Shinji remade everything exactly as it was, with Evas and NERV and the angels and all of the conflict inherent in that, because that is already the metaphor for the real world within the larger meta-framework of the narrative.
That doesn't make a difference because they just replaced the "metaphor" with the real thing and cheaply posited that as the "happy ending". That is literally stating that the current world we have, although not perfect, is the best option, not only for individual self actualization, but in terms of seeking "happiness". I also fail to see how the angels, nerv, and the evas have any real-world equivalent other than climate change and the deep state.
That doesn’t make a difference because they just replaced the “metaphor” with the real thing and cheaply posited that as the “happy ending”. That is literally stating that the current world we have, although not perfect, is the best option, not only for individual self actualization, but in terms of seeking “happiness”. I also fail to see how the angels, nerv, and the evas have any real-world equivalent other than climate change and the deep state.
that's not at all what any of that states. the textual "happy ending" brings with it the baggage that the entire show and five movies established prior: life is difficult and you will get hurt. it, by providing a point of contrast, underlines those ideas. life is difficult and you will get hurt, but it is worth it
the real world is never once posited as the best possible option for the world or individual happiness. it is the only possible option because it is all that exists. you, as a human being living on earth in 2021, cannot wave a magic spear and make global communism happen, you have to go out, into the capitalist hellscape of the real world, and work to bring it about, suffering as you do so, because that is what it costs to achieve things. other, better things can exist, but if all you do is sit in your room and watch mecha anime you will never bring them about, and that's the entire textual and metatextual thesis of evangelion
that’s not at all what any of that states. the textual “happy ending” brings with it the baggage that the entire show and five movies established prior: life is difficult and you will get hurt. it, by providing a point of contrast, underlines those ideas. life is difficult and you will get hurt, but it is worth it
This is what I mean when I stated "the current world we have, although not perfect, is the best option, not only for individual self actualization, but in terms of seeking “happiness”. "
Again, this is looking at the world using a god's eye view stating that "Life" as a grand construct or universal state of being is this or that. We simply cannot view "Life" as something separate from material conditions or the current socioeconomic order through the narrow perspective we have as human beings.
the real world is never once posited as the best possible option for the world or individual happiness. it is the only possible option because it is all that exists.
Again, this is literally saying that all we have in front of us is all that exists and is the only possible option for individual happiness. "It isn't great but it could be worse."
you, as a human being living on earth in 2021, cannot wave a magic spear and make global communism happen, you have to go out, into the capitalist hellscape of the real world, and work to bring it about, suffering as you do so, because that is what it costs to achieve things. other, better things can exist, but if all you do is sit in your room and watch mecha anime you will never bring them about
Exactly! And yet Shinji goes and becomes a salaryman wagie living together with his impossible waifu. The rebuilds in essence state that happiness is a moral imperative, and the only way forwards unto happiness is through accepting the role of a married wagecuck. Shinji is not shown returning to the village struggling to bring about any form of collective power with his comrades.
probably the most naked children I've ever seen in a movie
am I on some kind of list now
We've all automatically been added to the donor list of the Libertarian party :ancap-good:
The Originals: Still good, 10/10, art.
The Rebuilds: :i-told-you-dog: and also :ancap-good:
I think it's not really relevant that Shinji doesn't establish communism (though that would, of course, be cool). The rebuilds (especially 3.0 and 4.0) are Anno yelling at weebs that they need to stop living in the past, and have to find happiness in the real world.
I think it’s not really relevant that Shinji doesn’t establish communism (though that would, of course, be cool).
It is tho in both a meta sense and in the animu itself. Its a direct admission from the Zietgiest that nobody can imagine a better future or a better world than the one we currently have, because we are at the so called end of history. This was supposed to be Shinji's self-actualizing moment, a chance to create something better than the current situation with the total, absolute, power to do so, and yet he chose subservience to the elite under the same power structures that led to the 2nd impact and the same society that created the fundamental alienation that the characters feel. That is fucking depressing imo.
Anno yelling at weebs that they need to stop living in the past, and have to find happiness in the real world.
And they do this by becoming a salaryman and magically getting this perfect girlfriend. Its clear that Anno's personal financial success and marriage over the past few years influenced direction. The originals told an authentic story about human ruin and depression open to interpretation, with no didactic moral imperative to "happiness" being pushed. The rebuilds, on the other hand, do the opposite, with a clear didactic message being retconned in.
I agree that the ending of 4.0 is bad because it is both very simple and very preachy, I was just pointing out that the ending (and 4.0 in general) is focused on the meta level, so the textual level is more or less irrelevant.
On the textual level, though: in fairness to Shinji, the current real world is better than the world he lived in, because while we do live under capitalism, with all that entails, we aren't living in a post-apocalyptic eternal summer where 2/3 of the world died to the second impact, and we don't have biblical angels trying to turn us all into Tang. On top of that, he's a child soldier raised in a supremely conservative country, so again, I'd hardly expect him to create the perfect world.
I agree that the ending of 4.0 is bad because it is both very simple and very preachy, I was just pointing out that the ending (and 4.0 in general) is focused on the meta level, so the textual level is more or less irrelevant.
Indeed m8 sorry if I came off as a bit too hostile.
On the textual level, though: in fairness to Shinji, the current real world is better than the world he lived in, because while we do live under capitalism, with all that entails, we aren’t living in a post-apocalyptic eternal summer where 2/3 of the world died to the second impact,
...yet :ancap-good: (we need a neolib globe emoji)
But yeah he would in the end create such a world because he's a 14 year old child soldier who has probably only heard good things about the pre-impact world. It also mirror's Anno's own experiences too, since he was lucky enough that his efforts as an animator were rewarded by market forces and he's a millionaire now. Therefore, his ideal world of self-actualization would be this one.
Agree with all of your points and with somebody's earlier post on here that the remake has a lot of libertarian Michael Bay moments. I have a soft spot for using aircraft carriers for size comparison, but 4.0 just got ridiculous pretty much from the get-go.
What i did appreciate about it was the stronger focus on Rei. I think i could empathize more with her than with any other character on the show.
spoiler
even though killing one of her clones off after getting all the character growth in the village was a manipulative tearjerker dick move, not only in-universe but towards the audience as well.
Yeah one thing that sucks was how Rei was kind of neglected wrt. Shinji and Asuka in the originals. I could also never understand Rei as a character to the same degree as Misato, Asuka, and Shinji. If you don't mind sharing, what is the deal with Rei?
Rei is ... basically Gendo's first victim. Cloned over and over again as part of Gendo's plan, reduced to an empty husk. There's this scene in Rebuild were she says she's vegetarian - i think it's not meant literally, but that she simply doesn't eat at all except for pills (see the fact that she only takes the tiniest sip from the miso soup Shinji offers her - could ofc be because the broth isn't veggie, but i think it's meant to imply that she doesn't require food and isn't used to consuming it). All she does is sit in her dark, empty apartment, take her medication and do what she's supposed to do. She's not even depressed like Shinji, she is completeley depersonalized. She is nobody. Just a cog in the machine that literally gets replaced when it gets broken.
And then she gets to learn what it's like to be human, to connect to people, to lead a good, non-alienating life when she's working in the rice fields to provide for the community. And she takes that opportunity without hesitation, in the sweetest, kindest way possible. In spite of being a complete stranger to life outside of NERV, she's never scared or confused by all these things she doesn't know. Completely unlike Shinji and Asuka, who constantly push people away either by retreating or by aggressing. It's as if Rei's got this talent for caring and nurturing that the other pilots lack completely. That she's more capable of building a meaningful connection to others in spite of having zero learned social skills.
Which, now that i think about it, may be kinda problematic, as she's a clone of Shinji's mother and in spite of never having been a mother herself, that automatically makes her the archetypal mother (see her deep curiosity about the gravid cat that lives under the train waggon). As if even a clone of his mother has no defining characteristics besides being maternal.
Kunihiko Ikuhara said that if he had made the show he would have ended it with Shinji and Rei meeting after a long time and Rei being pregnant from some guy. Symbolyzing her having managed to escape from her life at NERV and finding happines and connections outside.
It would also be a perfect "fuck you" to all the otakus who don't engage with the themes of the show and treat her as their waifu (a doll).
Re: Rei not eating, this would be supported by Asuka not being able to eat/only needing water in 4.0 (and I think 3.0).
Fundamentally, Rei is the critique of the docile obedient waifu. When we first see her, she is literally, physically unable to stand on her own. She didn't make decisions, she followed orders. She didn't live for herself, she lived (and repeatedly died) for Gendo, believing dogmatically in his vision over her very existence. She's expressionless and unnervingly doll-like because she's deeply traumatized, barely a person. This is the barrier preventing her from making genuine connections with others, which is the uniting theme of every character's individual conflict.
The culmination of each character's story in 3.0+1.0 directly addressed their core conflict. Asuka found a way to love herself instead of seeking external validation (imo this suffered because she spent so much time moving the plot that she didn't get room to breathe), Rei developed the ability to make her own decisions and value her own experiences for her sake, and Shinji stood and faced reality (and his father) instead of running away.
Fundamentally, Rei is the critique of the docile obedient waifu.
Not really because I don't see how anyone in their right minds (even fucking weebs) would want to have some unemotional clone as their waifu. Even back in secondary education my friends and I all liked either Misato or Asuka.
The culmination of each character’s story in 3.0+1.0 directly addressed their core conflict.
Not at all. Asuka is literally just shown realizing self-compassion in this bullshit montage, the "original" Rei just up and leaves with barely any explanation or time devoted to why and the Rei clone which got fanta'ed early learned humanity from the ricefields without any substantive continuity. Shinji's core conflict at the end of the day was the same as Asuka's. Each of them hated themselves, and could not connect due to the "ugly" reflection they saw within each other. Shinji runs away because who the fuck wouldn't run away if they had a psycho-ass dad who sends you out to fight monsters that have more firepower than a nuclear bomb? In the originals, Shinji connects with each human on a fundamental level due to instrumentality, and thus is able to connect his own struggles with those of everyone elses. As a result, he gains self-compassion and ends instrumentality, having each person decide for themselves if they want to come back or not. Yet he is still fucked up due to all the horrifying shit he want through, which is why he strangles Asuka on the beach when he realizes she knows everything about him due to instrumentality. This makes much more sense than whatever didactic asspull ending rebuild 4.0 tried.
Not really because I don’t see how anyone in their right minds would want to have some unemotional clone as their waifu
just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not shockingly prevalent, particularly among anime fans, both in Japan and in the west. people who are afraid to talk to girls and fantasize about meek (or young) women who are pathologically nonthreatening empty vessels are widespread and have been for a long time. you're approaching the text with your own biases instead of attempting to understand the biases and motives of the creators, whose statements refute your points, and whose cultural contexts differ from your own
people who are afraid to talk to girls and fantasize about meek (or young) women who are pathologically nonthreatening empty vessels are widespread and have been for a long time.
If this is actually true to the point of it inspiring a character in one of the most popular anime franchises ever, this is fucked. Holy shit I thought incels were only a recent phenomenon.
you’re approaching the text with your own biases instead of attempting to understand the biases and motives of the creators,
The fact that I was unaware of Rei's symbolism is not enough evidence to make this sweeping claim unfortunately.
whose statements refute your points, and whose cultural contexts differ from your own
Interesting, which statements refute which of my points so thoroughly? Its also very hilarious to assume I do not share cultural context with the creators of Evangelion.
you missed an entire, massive, deeply unsubtle pillar of the show's social commentary that has dominated online discussion (in both Japanese and English) about the franchise and anime industry as a whole for the past 25 years, I think there are plenty of sweeping claims about your biases and shared cultural contexts or lack thereof to be made here
you missed an entire, massive, deeply unsubtle pillar of the show’s social commentary that has dominated online discussion
Again, which one? Just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean its automatically wrong lmao
I think there are plenty of sweeping claims about your biases and shared cultural contexts or lack thereof to be made here
Such as?
I liked the original show + EoE, and figured 3+1 would be a trainwreck after 3 was lacking in details and writing for most of the cast. It was, but wasn't as spectacular a trainwreck as I thought it would be. Still really annoyed by some of the choices and writing, and I remember just thinking "Please" when they said "This is the end of Eva."
normie.... Detected
opinion... Ejected
:party-sicko: :party-sicko: :party-sicko:
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