A very interesting read that works to dispel the western myth that the Red Army was a barbaric hord reliant on sending more men than the nazis had bullets to put the fascist beast to pasture.

Users question:

The (oversimplified) public stereotype is that the Wehrmacht was extremely competent and professional, whereas in the USSR military innovation was hampered by Stalin's purges.

Yet in reading Prit Buttar's books on the Ukrainian campaigns of '42-3, I am struck by (according to him) how rigorously and systematically the Red Army analysed their performance and made improvements at every level after every major engagement. Yet the Wehrmacht doesn't seem to engage in nearly as much post-battle analysis.

Is this erroneous, due to a cultural difference between the two institutions, or was it because the Wehrmacht was so skilled it had little to improve upon (besides the unaddressable blunders of the Nazi administration in geopolitics, strategy and industry)?

Historian answer:

Jonathan House (Professor of history at the Army War College and former intelligence officer) says it is true, (at least after 1942) for ideological reasons. Marxist-Leninists conceived of Marxism, and especially Marxist-Leninism, as "scientific." This can actually be traced back to Engals, but the Bolsheviks really made it a thing. Socialism was an empirical endeavor, and military doctrine should follow Socialist principles. Therefore, gathering detailed statistics on battlefield performance, and revising praxis based on that data, was considered good socialism. The more detailed the data, the better. House’s writing partner, and the foremost Soviet archival researcher, David Glantz, adds that the organizational redundancy of the Red Army actually generated two sets of after action reports for each engagement. One from the military commander and one from the political officer. The encouraged honesty and thoroughness, as well as just applying two sets of eyes to the problem. The depth and detail of these reports was not known to Historians until after the USSR dissolved, since they were all classified. There are well documented cases where battlefield commanders misled or misinformed the Stavka, but over the course of the war, the system generally worked.

Whether you agree with House and Glantz about the source of this organizational characteristic of the Red Army, these documents exist. And the Red Army steadily and continuously improved in organization and effectiveness throughout the war.

By contrast, Nazi documentation is confusing, and has inspired widely divergent estimates of battle outcomes. As /u/TankArchives (Peter Samsonov) has documented in some detail on his website, local commanders routinely obfuscated their after action reports, and arguably outright lied. Every action resulted in overwhelming localized German success, which somehow never translated into them holding the field of battle at the end of the engagement. And these successes not only didn’t match Soviet records, they didn’t even match Soviet records of what units and equipment were in the area. No less an authority than Glantz himself has endorsed Samsonov's research.

Beyond that, German accounting for at least tank losses, by design, was not all that useful for operational planning. Tanks losses were not defined as lack of availability for combat. To be considered a combat loss, a tank had to be completely destroyed or captured and unrecoverable. If the chassis of the tank still existed, and could be sent back to Germany for rebuild, it was listed as damaged, even though it was unavailable for use in any reasonable time frame. Even crazier, they sometimes didn’t count vehicles destroyed by their own crews to prevent capture as combat losses. There is no way to use such statistics for operational or strategic planning, or tactical edification.

Perhaps, if we accept House’s logic for the Soviet practice, the root of the German problem also lay in ideology. Nazism prized internecine competition, without scruple or principle. Unflattering statistics were politically unrewarding. Goering would not benefit by telling Hitler that his Air Force could not defeat the RAF over Britain. That would just make him more vulnerable to Himmler's political machinations. Likewise, in 1945, when Goering's fighter commanders objected to the continued offensive use of their resources, and demanded the Luftwaffe needed to concentrate on interception, he sacked them. Abandoning offense, while obviously the correct move, was not politically viable. The fact that SS units were decidedly more liberal in their after action exaggerations and fabrications lends some credence to this hypothesis. At any rate, by 1943, it should have been obvious to most German officers that the war was lost, and they had little incentive to do anything but cover their asses and hope for the best. German records are confusing enough that recent historians gleaning statistics regarding German tank losses in the July 12 1943 engagement at Prokhorovka came up with numbers ranging from 162 to 5. (Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative, Zamulin, Valeriy and Britton, Stuart)

  • 7DeadlyFetishes [he/him,comrade/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    It still absolutely baffles me how today, even after all the information we've learned from WWII, webraboos fetishization/sexification/fictionalization of the Wehrmacht at all levels being the fucking A-team of WWII able to crush any and every threat ahead of them, but fell short because of logistical shortcomings/Overwhelming forces, powers out of German control were the the reason they lost war, with no consideration that maybe fighting a two front war in a country who even at the start of war struggled to meet wartime demand for fuel, food, materials, etc.

    Personally I blame the boring American suburbia and youtube for this fanlore of the 3rd Reich, when you give every no-personality white male in the US an internet connection and no friends, the natural outcome is an Eric Rommel body pillow and WWII replica uniforms being shipped by Amazon to your doorstep.

    -7DeadlyFetishes

    • hexaflexagonbear [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      but fell short because of logistical shortcomings

      Always found it weird that "if only the wehrmacht weren't incompetent at the one thing that has been central to warfare for thousands of years they'd have won" was a defence for them.

      • 7DeadlyFetishes [he/him,comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Also the "If the wehramacht did X thing that the wehrmacht leadership would never do in the X campaign, they would have won!" like damn son they lost for a fucking reason; it wasn't chance or the sun was in thier eyes.

        -7DeadlyFetishes

      • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
        ·
        3 years ago

        It's a little known fact that every other line in The Art of War is just "no seriously, don't be a fucking dumbass who forgets to bring supplies." Similarly, half of The Prince is just the line "seriously you dumb motherfuckers just learn what you're doing and also pack a lunch this time," repeated over and over.

    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Personally I blame the boring American suburbia and youtube for this fanlore of the 3rd Reich, when you give every no-personality white male in the US an internet connection and no friends, the natural outcome is an Eric Rommel body pillow and WWII replica uniforms being shipped by Amazon to your doorstep.

      :this: but also :visible-disgust:

      The thing is also that it was expedient for cold warriors to shit on the Red Army at every opportunity, which necessarily glorifies the Wehrmacht in practice.

      • 7DeadlyFetishes [he/him,comrade/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        The thing is also that it was expedient for cold warriors to shit on the Red Army at every opportunity, which necessarily glorifies the Wehrmacht in practice.

        I read this like three times and still can't follow the point your trying to make srry am stupid

        -7DeadlyFetishes

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          edit-2
          3 years ago

          NP, what I meant was that it was good for American anticommunists' goals if everyone disliked the Red Army. That meant that a lot of propaganda was made about "Soviet Hordes", etc., and as a byproduct the Wehrmacht is thought of as a much more effective fighting force than they actually were.

          Anticommunism also definitely lead to a lot of outright Wehrabooism, because they opposed the Soviets.

          Edit: I see how my original sentence wasn't super clear lol.

  • RandyLahey [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    Every action resulted in overwhelming localized German success, which somehow never translated into them holding the field of battle at the end of the engagement.

    :data-laughing: i will never get tired of reading this sort of shit about the wehrmacht

  • AlexandairBabeuf [they/them]
    ·
    3 years ago

    we should do more based askhistorians crossposting

    like this sub literally has takedowns of the holodomor, there are gems to be sought

    • GrouchyGrouse [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      AskHistorians is basically one of the only reasons I go back to reddit. There's a couple other niche subs I like for music interests of mine, but AskHistorians is just a wonderful resource. People who whine about the heavy handed modding all get six months labor in the Book Mines where they learn to fucking read.

      • TheCaconym [any]
        ·
        3 years ago

        AskAnthropology is good as well. Occasionally some CHUD will wander there trying to have their views validated through concern trolling questions and they get destroyed.

        • gaycomputeruser [she/her]
          ·
          edit-2
          3 years ago

          Damn its kinda totally supprising that reality keeps being marxist wow impossible "muh economics muh human nature" wow rigorous study of the facts leads to communist conclusions

        • GrouchyGrouse [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Thanks for mentioning them, I always forget about them but yes that is also an extremely good sub. Great information and also, heh, like you mentioned, the utter satisfaction of watching a CHUD get destroyed.

      • star_wraith [he/him]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        It's a good sub but one topic in particular seems to be bad: discussion of US war crimes and atrocities in Vietnam. But that's because there's one mod in particular who seems to chime in on any post asking about it and they basically handwave away the notion that the US was the baddies in Vietnam (and since they are a mod their comments always are up at the top).

    • ElGosso [he/him]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      There was one poster there, I forget his exact name (something Zhukov), who disappeared, but would reliably make pro-AES statements.

      EDIT: It was Georgy_K_Zhukov and they're still there, I just can't read lol

    • star_wraith [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      I think a lot of that is because when it comes to the field of historical study, Marx and historical materialism won in the end. Academic historians, consciously or not, use a whole bunch of materialist tools in analyzing history.

      • AlexandairBabeuf [they/them]
        ·
        3 years ago

        absolutely. materialism is extremely important to the field, even if historians drag out 'fairness' and 'ideology' proper analysis almost always leans toward materialism.

        • star_wraith [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          I once heard a historian say something to the effect of "yes, materialism is critical in properly understanding history. It's an important tool for us but it is one tool among many that we use", which seems fair to me. I'm not expecting every historian to embrace Marxism or anything.

          • AlexandairBabeuf [they/them]
            ·
            3 years ago

            karlomarx's 'the point is to change it' isn't an all the time job, political and religious history are worthwhile pursuits not entirely tethered to materialism

      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
        ·
        edit-2
        3 years ago

        I suppose we'll have to load a Tiger full of Nazis and throw it into the ocean to find out. :tito-laugh:

        • Frank [he/him, he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          I'm game. We can always find Nazis in Portland but where are we going to get a Tiger at this hour of the night?

    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
      ·
      edit-2
      3 years ago

      "Despite being fucking terrible at most of what is needed to win a war, and in fact losing the war, was the Nazi army actually good at winning wars?" :centrist:

    • SacredExcrement [any, comrade/them]
      ·
      3 years ago

      You didn't really think you were going to get a completely objective analysis of Nazi failings without said Nazis being given at least a little boot polish from your :reddit-logo: user, did you?

      You could get a 40 page diatribe out of them regarding why Nazism is a blatantly evil ideology, why their military was a bunch of drugged up fools high off of opiates and their own farts, why Hitler was insane, however I guarantee that even such a lengthy and thorough dismantling would be capped with "BUT"

    • steve5487 [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      The Nazis insisted all the tanks be handmade for ideological reasons these are not people with a good idea of how to win a war

        • ultraviolet [she/her]
          ·
          3 years ago

          German tanks (even the reasonably designed ones) were far more overengineered than their Soviet counterparts so each individual tank was well made but it meant you were wasting resources on making something perfect rather than making a bunch of things that was just good enough. Turns out making more things and having good logistical support is more important to winning a war than having a super tank.

          • KoeRhee [he/him]
            ·
            3 years ago

            I think I remember from a YouTube video that on average, German engineers were making changes to the production process of the Tiger for every 6 copies they built, on average

        • steve5487 [none/use name]
          ·
          edit-2
          3 years ago

          Yeah it's why the Nazis only made a few thousand tanks while the Soviet union and Americans made 10's of thousands. Also the German tanks were over engineered and prone to catching fire and they destroyed their Tiger tanks whenever they retreated

  • adultswim_antifa [he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    After WW2 had ended and the cold war had begun, as we all know, America started importing every nazi scientist and engineer they could, because the US believed it would probably need to do the very same thing the Germans had just attempted: invade Russia from Germany. They asked nazis, who they trusted?, how could they have lost to fucking communists. They did not ask Russians how they won. Nazis believed in their racial superiority over slavs, so of course the nazi explanations of their defeat were dumb as fuck. These idiots thought they could invade a country that spans 11 time zones and beat them in a few months. Over decades, the nazi bullshit seeped into the American ideology when it was completely hopeless due to logistics, economics, population sizes, etc.

    • GrouchyGrouse [he/him]
      ·
      3 years ago

      THEY LET SHIRO ISHII WALK. IN EXCHANGE FOR HIS "INFORMATION."

      They let the guy who oversaw Unit 731, who did such grotesque non-scientific bullshit as "how long does a human stay alive while being cut in half?" or "how long does it take for a naked human to freeze to death in sub-freezing temperatures?" go free in exchange for his pile of misanthropic experiments.

      Oh wait, hang on, a little bird is reminding me that they also did a lot of chemical weapons tests. The USA was very keen on that shit. The little bird is now sarcastically reminding me that the USA continues to disavow that it used chemical or biological weapons in the Korean War. This little bird is cool as shit.

      • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Fun fact: the only members of Unit 731 to face criminal punishment for their actions were a handful the Soviets captured. They received prison sentences of anywhere from a few years to 20, though none served more than 7 as Khruschev commuted the sentences of the survivors (one had killed himself early on) and repatriated them to Japan. The US denounced their trial as a sham and worked to suppress the transcripts of it from being distributed.

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          Khruschev commuted the sentences of the survivors (one had killed himself early on) and repatriated them to Japan.

          :corn-man-khrush: :stalin-gun-1::stalin-gun-2:

        • LoudMuffin [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          i don't remember where i was introduced to this concept (probably the trueanon sub) but i really am fascinated by the concept that governments try to find and then weaponize serial killers

          like imagine having a guy like the Toybox Killer as your torture guy

          I genuinely think this is what people like Gna Hspel actually are in reality, they're just people who would have been regular serial killers if they were stupider

        • GrouchyGrouse [he/him]
          ·
          3 years ago

          It's a scientific way to find out what a sadist piece of shit you can be. I mean I'm being a bit flippant, but also, given the ramping up of paraphilias and the way they reinforce each other and accelerate a killer's journey along the paraphilic continuum, I'm also not really joking.

    • LeninWeave [none/use name]
      ·
      3 years ago

      Over decades, the nazi bullshit seeped into the American ideology

      The cycle of Nazi bullshit: starts in American ideology, moves to Germany, imported back to America, wash, rinse, repeat.

  • infuziSporg [e/em/eir]
    ·
    edit-2
    3 years ago

    the root of the German problem also lay in ideology. Nazism prized internecine competition, without scruple or principle.

    Finally they're posting the good shit.

    There really wasn't any magic in taking one of the already largest industrial economies and turning it into a war machine to conquer its neighbors.

  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    You know, to be fair, it just occurred to me that a brick is probably better at self-reflection than the Nazis, so I think the title really undersells the Red Army.

  • Frank [he/him, he/him]
    ·
    3 years ago

    As I grow older I am increasingly convinced that any apparent prowess on the part of the Nazis is post-war American propaganda to make the Nazis look more fearsome than they really were.