:1984: ugh it doesn't do a whole lot but the devs said your police go plant bugs and stuff. i mean they are surprisingly pacifist otherwise, no arrests, you just blacklist reactionaries from important jobs (or those that aren't "loyal to the state"). it does take some of the pure socialist urban/nation planning away from an otherwise good game. not sure how historically accurate it is, but if bug planting and removal of responsibilities is as "police state stasi" as this gets i won't be too upset in the long run. beats murdering citizens in the streets for minor crimes

  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
    ·
    3 years ago

    As far as I understand (keep in mind this is from memory), the actual Stasi weren't all that violent either. They mostly did surveillance and put pressure on people (such as having student dissidents fail classes). Certainly not the "run around oppressing and assassinating everyone" image people in the West seem to have built up of them.

      • EthicalHumanMeat [he/him]
        ·
        3 years ago

        Sounds hilarious, actually. Imagine if every college Republican failed all their classes.

        Honestly especially appropriate in post-WWII Germany.

        • LeninWeave [none/use name]
          ·
          3 years ago

          I think they thought I meant little kids in school rather than, you know, this.

          As always, I'm sure there were overreaches of authority, and I'm sure there were also times when they were correct (as you say, post-WW2 Germany certainly wouldn't have produced ideal conditions). This is from a half-remembered passage I read in Stasi State or Socialist Paradise, so take it all with a grain of salt regardless.

          Edit: they did not. I think they're just angry and taking it out here by interpreting everything I say in the most uncharitable possible way.

      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
        ·
        3 years ago

        When did I call it "lol whatever"? My point is that the actual activities of the Stasi, while obviously not always above board, were also not nearly what people in the West think they were.

          • LeninWeave [none/use name]
            ·
            3 years ago

            exactly what people in the west think they were

            People in the West think that the Stasi ran around rounding up anyone who criticized the government and killing/imprisoning them, not that they used unethical pressure tactics to dissuade active political dissidents.

            There's a huge difference between those two. If you wanted, I'm sure you could also find better and worse things the Stasi did. The point is that they're not the cartoon villains they're portrayed as in American propaganda.

            I don’t know how you diminish that but it’s not done honestly

            I'm literally not diminishing anything. I didn't say it was good.

            Edit: "just examining everything your children say" University student political dissidents, not primary school children.

            Edit 2: this is all from a passage I read a while back in Stasi State or Socialist Paradise, so it's possible I'm misremembering details anyway. Anyone who's reading this and is interested in the subject should take it from the book, rather than from me.

              • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                ·
                3 years ago

                The point is that they’re not the cartoon villains they’re portrayed as in American propaganda.

                This is what diminishing means.

                That's just factual. Of course the Americans exaggerate the crimes of their enemies.

                You’re painting the picture of a malevolent all powerful and omnipresent state that interferes in all aspects of daily life to the point of trying to destroy children who wrongthink.

                If you read my edits (edit: and didn't intentionally interpret them in the worst possible way), you'd know I'm not talking about "wrong-thinking" children, but adults who are working against the state (that's what "dissidents" means). And I don't think it was good, just that it wasn't quite what people think the Stasi generally did.

                Once again, I suggest Stasi State or Socialist Paradise, because I'm only remembering from a passage of it. It's critical of the Stasi, by the way, not supportive of them.

                Honestly, nothing I've made here is a wild point, especially in the context of this website. I'd appreciate you reading my posts in good faith instead of assuming I'm a psychopath and proceeding with the worst possible interpretation of everything I say.

                • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
                  ·
                  3 years ago

                  Fun fact: the US employs proportionally more of its own citizens to spy on their fellow countrymen than the GDR ever did. They also imprison several orders of magnitude more people.

                  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    They also imprison several orders of magnitude more people.

                    Has anyone (in recent history) actually beat the US on this one?

                    • AlephNull [she/her]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      Unfortunately, a*stralia and its incarceration of aboriginal people (per capita, not raw numbers)

                    • invalidusernamelol [he/him]
                      ·
                      3 years ago

                      You'd have to go back to like early history to beat it. The police state in America is functionally unique in world history.

                  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    “My statement of opinion is actually a fact”

                    Literally nothing in your entire reply actually responds to a single fucking thing I said. All you do is vaguely whine about ‘being interpreted unfavorably’ and ad hominem insults about not participating in good faith.

                    Fuck you. Participating in good faith means not ignoring literally every single fucking word I say, asshole.

                    Well sorry. Just because I didn’t repeat your own words back to you with exactly the same tone and emphasis does not mean you were interpreted dishonestly.

                    There’s nothing more for me to say here because you completely checked out of the argument. You didn’t reply.

                    Alright. I replied exactly as much as I intended to, because I'm already tired of this and I didn't want to get deeper into a debate. "American propaganda about East Germany includes many exaggerations and even falsehoods" is a fact. It's just true.

                    I started typing a reply to the rest, but then realized it was pointless. Let's agree to disagree on the subject of the real Stasi not being as bad as the Stasi in the minds of Americans. Have a good day.

                      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                        ·
                        3 years ago

                        I'm honestly not sure what you mean. The specific example I originally used:

                        They mostly did surveillance and put pressure on people (such as having student dissidents fail classes).

                        And the perception Americans have of the Stasi, also from my first post:

                        Certainly not the “run around oppressing and assassinating everyone” image people in the West seem to have built up of them.

                        Clearly, one doesn't line up with the other. Of course the image people in the West have of the Stasi is exaggerated. You can call that a "truism" if you want, but it's literally the entire point of this thread of comments and you seem to even agree with it here.

                        Whatever you think it is I'm arguing, I assure you I'm not.

                          • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            Seriously, what is it I'm missing from your comments? It's possible I accidentally skipped over a line while reading/replying.

                              • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                                ·
                                3 years ago

                                As far as I know, I replied to every comment. And I assure you that if I did that, it wasn't intentional. Again, please let me know the points I haven't addressed. It's totally possible I'm missing something here.

                                  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                                    ·
                                    3 years ago

                                    I feel like I'm going crazy here. I'm going to read over the thread again to see for myself if I missed something.

                                      • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                                        ·
                                        3 years ago

                                        See my other reply, quoted here.

                                        “The only people in the world who think college kids are adults are either cops or kids who are even younger.”

                                        OK, I think this is what you’re referring to? Yeah, I accidentally missed that line while reading the first time around, sorry about that.

                                        Thing is, college kids are factually adults (according to the definition of the word everyone uses), even though they might not all be fully mature. Beyond that, your example of “19 years old” is essentially the youngest age for college students, and I’m talking about political dissidents who I’d imagine are typically not in their first year.

                                        Regardless, I agree (and have said in other posts in this thread) that there were certainly overreaches. My sole point was that the Stasi were not nearly as violent as they are in the average Westerner’s mind.

                                        Edit: this was meant to relate to the text in the OP, quoted below.

                                        not sure how historically accurate it is, but if bug planting and removal of responsibilities is as “police state stasi” as this gets i won’t be too upset in the long run. beats murdering citizens in the streets for minor crimes

                                  • LeninWeave [none/use name]
                                    ·
                                    3 years ago

                                    "The only people in the world who think college kids are adults are either cops or kids who are even younger."

                                    OK, I think this is what you're referring to? Yeah, I accidentally missed that line while reading the first time around, sorry about that.

                                    Thing is, college kids are factually adults (according to the definition of the word everyone uses), even though they might not all be fully mature. Beyond that, your example of "19 years old" is essentially the youngest age for college students, and I'm talking about political dissidents who I'd imagine are typically not in their first year.

                                    Regardless, I agree (and have said in other posts in this thread) that there were certainly overreaches. My sole point was that the Stasi were not nearly as violent as they are in the average Westerner's mind.

                                    Edit: this was meant to relate to the text in the OP, quoted below.

                                    not sure how historically accurate it is, but if bug planting and removal of responsibilities is as “police state stasi” as this gets i won’t be too upset in the long run. beats murdering citizens in the streets for minor crimes

              • comi [he/him]
                ·
                3 years ago

                Destruction as in not spending resources on their education?

                I have a question, how do you organize free education (as in paid for by society), when you have brain drain problems, cause nearby usa pays more cash money?

                          • GalaxyBrain [they/them]
                            ·
                            3 years ago

                            You're right, it's cruel and unusual to keep an eye on students that likely grew up in the Hitler Youth. Also, it's free education. It's not like failing a class is the end of the world, they aren't burdened with student debt or anything. You can still just kinda go get a job. For fuck's sake, we don't even let you attend college in the first place if you aren't rich enough.

                              • GalaxyBrain [they/them]
                                ·
                                3 years ago

                                So college kids in East Germany following the second world war wouldn't have grown up under the Nazis and indoctrinated in it from a very young age and maybe that's something to keep an eye on.

                                Public services get revoked for political reasons all the time. Do you have revolutionary politics? Cause that requires WAY harsher actions motivated by political reasons that failing a class, which once again isn't expulsion.

                  • comi [he/him]
                    ·
                    3 years ago

                    It’s very interesting, you are jumping definitions of your and societal very rapidly. Education, housing and healthcare is society project, not singular ubermensch achievement. So precisely at what point do you think society may intervene, or it should all be left to continue?