I see from the /r/antiwork dunktank threads that most of you don't understand the irl anarchist movement, so ask me anything, let's learn.
Recc reading for what these guys actually believe
we technically have a !anarchism@hexbear.net
most twitter marxist complaints about "post-leftists" are actually directed at an entirely different set of people who only exist on twitter
There is no unified irl anarchist movement. It suffers from the same disorganization as all Western leftism and from so many members having a penchant for navel-gazing/making politics about their personal journey. It also suffers from a lack of clarity, as anyone can call themselves an anarchist while fully supporting capitalism, pushing US State Department propaganda, supporting oppression of the unhoused, etc etc. Obviously anyone can call themselves anything and then act like they were going to anyways, but both online and irl spaces suffer from the normalization of right wing anarchism and liberals that just like the aesthetic. A month ago I canvassed an anarchist who said they were voting Republican and wanted all the homeless people rounded up and out in jail. They had the circle-A symbol everywhere in addition to self-labeling. Couldn't be more different from my irl party anarchist comrades.
You'll find coherent and based anarchism only you dive into specific tendencies.
My questions about lifestylists or post-leftists would all be rhetorical and snide, so I'll be as nice as I can: why?
I'm gonna pretend you want a real answer:
Most of the folks I've met who are post leftists or green anarchists or nihilists are folks who got burnt out doing conventional organizing in the Iraq War and OWS era. Their rhetoric is definitely more inflammatory than what they actually do, which is a lot of activist scale organizing with immediate tangible results (like picketing a wage thief or distributing aquired food and warm weather gear), as well as participation in demonstration and leading by example.
The big difference is that they don't do party building or union organizing or non profit work, which is what they usually mean by "post left" but they'd certainly participate in anything we'd recognize as a revolution.
So in short, it's a response to the difficulty of activism akin to someone after a breakup "working on themselves" and hooking up with people instead of looking for a long term thing.
I figured you might list some of the criticisms you have perceived of this group and then list why they are wrong or that you don't mind the issues raised. After all, your post lead with a condescending declaration that we don't know these topics (without actually referring to anything anyone here has said).
If that wasn't what you had in mind, then what education are you bringing?
Thank you for recommendations. I just finished reading the Work Sucks article and I fuck with its message.
I don't. The message reads as "let's do petty crimes that will get us locked in prison when caught instead of unionizing and organizing." Indistinguishable from fed posting.
Sufficient unionizing and organizing is probably a good bet for a ticket to jail in America, too.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a wob, but the media and security state are so captured by corporate/oligarch interests that I don't think the IWW or any other union org is going to make any real headway in the continental USA.
I'm a wob
I'm not discounting organizing, I'm a member of an org.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm a member of the IWW and I am realistic about what that means in America. I'm saying I don't think unions or vanguard parties will survive in America if they seem at all influential. That isn't stopping me from being a union member but it does mean I'm not expecting a worker's revolution in the imperial core - that's why I'm mostly an anarchist. If the revolution happens it will start in the 'third world' or from AES countries, best we can do in the core is survive and try to hobble the beast.
Being in prison is not incompatible with withholding your labor :joker-troll:
Having worked with guys with felonies for most of my life (kinda impossible not to in this country honestly), going to prison is in no way withholding your labor, and in fact, makes you more legally exploitable by the state.
Even if you try to withhold your labor (which, good luck, between the psychological problem of being bored and a social need to stay either the good side of the guards or gangs, either of whom require underpaid labor as a sign of deference) as soon as you are out your labor is in a more precarious position than ever with felons making up the majority of the homeless population.
Now, you might be young and clever, and can bounce that outside cat :data-outdoor-cat: shit for awhile, but eventually, you might make a mistake, slip up, and then the hammer comes down again to throw you back into that prison system to start over again.
Sorry for the rant, I don't think you believe this, but I didn't see it being said.
Not half as fast as some of the advice or examples given in this essay like "steal half of the admissions money if you're a ticket taker". My brother did a year in prison for doing something similar at work and it had a major and immediate negative impact on his life.
No doubt there are steep consequences, and that sucks about your brother. I hope he's doing well.
Do we actually have documentation on the kind of things feds post? I'd be really curious to see it.
Purely from what you and supporters are posting the last couple of hours, the message is entirely convenient to a conservative agenda.
They want a chaotic social and political environment, they believe it's necessary to their agenda and that it's how they'll thrive. They don't want a peaceful, progressing social and cultural environment. They don't want a serene society where the natural result is oppressed members feeling empowered enough to demand equality. They want a tense, stressed society where everyone is walking around strapped and maybe on uppers.
It's the same geopolitically imo, the US does not want a calm global economy with free trade anymore. They'll lose position to China. They prefer to reign in chaos.
I mean, responses to petty crime and rebellion will be automated pretty soon. Better to expend your energies in organizing to take control of automation, than to try and fight the robots + cameras.
Is there any scenario where an organization in the US got enough power that it might threaten automation or the oligarchs in general that doesn't result in the org either being fully co-opted at the top level by feds or with the leaders dead or in prison? I can't see one, personally.
That why we chip away with a thousand smaller organizations that loosely work together. It's less efficient, but makes it much more difficult to infiltrate and disable them.
I think the black panthers would count as a "smaller" regional org, and we all know what the feds did to them. I just don't see any vanguard party or parties situation working from within the panopticon.
Things seem to be swinging twords conditions that would make that possible. Its not there yet though.
Unfortunately I don't think the security apparatus has any plans on weakening their grip, regardless of what the people think. State security forces have been used in combat against striking union workers in the past and I have no doubt that option will still be on the table for as long as I live.
They are a lot less competent now. Or at least they look that way.
One thing is for sure, people on the left are a bit more prudent about opsec and I hope more skeptical of people suggesting doing adventurism, but the recent triumphs of state secret police (the governor kidnapping farce, pretty sure jan 6th) suggest they're still on their bullshit. Even the Austin Red Guard are a pretty good example - everybody on the left seems to be on the same page about them being feds but libs and right wingers fully believe they're genuine leftists doing stupid things.
Feds just need to start one good argument and the group is disbanded.
It's true, I've seen it happen. Big groups on the other hand tend to be really bad at holding leadership or even membership accountable and changing in the face of criticism.
Both are neccessary at different times
Nice sentence fucker :)
tbh yes, I can see positive scenarios, but maybe I'm delusional.
I don't see any positivity coming from the message coming across the last couple of hours here tho.
I'm not being glib about this, it's probably a common reaction, but if you feel like there's nothing for you but petty crime and rebellion, why not find somewhere to live some semblance of a dignified life, with intergenerational contact. It's gotta be better than dashing yourself against an indifferent machine.
why not find somewhere to live some semblance of a dignified life, with intergenerational contact
...do I need a passport and a visa to find this place?
Only you know what you need.
Can you visualize a scenario where you could live a worthy life outside the core?
This is a bit too hand wavy. The point I was implying was, if we need a bunch of money and a visa to find such a place it's not really a practical goal for most of us here.
I guess I wasn't clear, I'm pretty far beyond "can I visualize living a worthy life outside the core" and I'm into "is it at all feasible or practical to pursue this goal". I'm also pretty sure it's neither feasible nor practical.
Feasible or practical from what perspective? People are motivated to move from the periphery to the core every day, with nothing. A tougher life change generally. Surely the reverse is possible if the only alternative is petty crime and rebellion.
Don't want to come across as confrontational, it's fine if you don't want to discuss granular details or personal circumstances. I do think that it's possible for motivated people to move from the core to live a worthy life, fwiw.
I don't know your life and you don't know mine. If we're both posting here let's assume some good faith.
It's a pretty easy assumption to make since I keep pointing out that it's expensive to move to another country and you keep brushing past it like cost is not something you really worry about.
Not sure how productive this converstation can be at this stage.
It seems like you really want me to be bougie or something.
I'm saying that people make the more difficult + costly migration to the core all the time. We should be able to at least visualize doing the opposite if we believe the only alternative is a life of petty crimes and ineffective rebellion.
The imperial core requires a constant influx of workers whose immigration status renders them helpless, so yes, it is relatively easy to come to the USA on a work visa. That is not how it works in reverse unless I guess you want to be a very bad english teacher in an asian country on a temporary visa (I do not), like I keep telling you. You have not woken me up to the idea of living in a different nation, I have been thinking about that since I was a teenager and have done the research. I keep telling you I lack the desirable profession and financial security to do this because that is the reality, I am not speculating, I have done my research. If you don't want to look bougie then maybe take it into consideration when people tell you their financial situation precludes them from doing a thing you seem to be speculating about.
edit: like seriously, there are calculators that give you a real quick rundown of your eligibility for immigration, I'm not eligible, please internalize this information before replying about just imagining the possibility or some other "the secret" shit
We're going in circles here.
You're saying that shit's fucked and there's nothing but a life of crimes and rebellion for those born in the core.
I'm saying that if you believe that, it should be enough motivation to move from the core and live a worthy life somewhere else. Anywhere else, surely.
You're saying that's not possible for you in particular because the immigration eligibilty webpage said no. Not a good attitude for someone preparing for a life of crimes and rebellion tbh.
I'm maintaining that it's absolutely possible to move from the core. People do it every day, without the desirable professions and financial security you seem to need. Maybe you have higher requirements than these people.
You're making a lot of silly assumptions and your assertions are not worth regarding. This hasn't been a worthwhile engagement, but keep telling people to imagine being somewhere else or whatever "the secret" level shit you're on.
edit: also please be aware your assertions amount to bourgeois jacketing yourself, maybe make a new account to prevent anyone from realizing you're exempt from cost analysis
Have you ever looked into immigration requirements? They're almost universally pretty steep. If I was the kind of desired worker that grants eligible status to emigrate to most countries, I'd be financially comfortable here in the core. I'm also pretty sure being a white american moving to another country and trying to agitate or organize is pretty much "white savior" bullshit. The best thing we in the core can do to as far as I can tell is to contribute to weakening the oligarchy.
It's generally possible for english speakers to move from the core and live a local standard of living. It isn't as pretty as we're used to but we're talking about a worthy alternative to a life of futile gestures. The saviour bullshit, to me, is the type of resistance that you seem to be advocating.
Fully agree that people who choose to remain in the core should contribute to weakening the oligarchy. I don't think crimes + rebellion will weaken anything.
Because most of these people are queer and intergenerational contact is often out of the question
It's a fair point, but not a dead end imo. Even in a rural conservative area.
I'm certainly not a nihilist. I'm an IWW member, and I'm also a realist with my eyes open.
There are post leftists who advocate taking over the MoP, Fredy Perlman (pre primitivist turn) and other post situationists especially. He talked about how during periods of revolutionary upheaval, we can't trust the workers unions or parties to seize the MoP, so it's up to "handfuls of madmen" to rush into the factories and start producing things with the goal of giving them to revolutionaries in the streets and universities the same way farmers started producing food for them during mai 68.
They look around for people susceptible to that kind of message and then DM them and try to convince them to go through with it, see the case of the people trying to kidnap the Michigan governor. There were like 2 actual chuds and 6 feds with them egging them on. ALAB podcast had a good episode on it. That said, i'd guess they probably dont bother with trying to get people to steal from their job, unless your part of an org or something and they want some pretext to investigate you. The spy cops thing in the UK also has some examples of what undercover cops do. You might be able to pull some examples of actual fed posts from court cases, but that sounds like too much work.
if we wouldn’t resent our friends or comrades who have different desires, projects or tactics; if we wouldn’t project that guilt onto them—if we could stop doing all that, we would be so much closer to imagining truly revolutionary tactics, liberatory ways of life, abolitionist strategies.
...
there are probably people you know who think that Lenin, Mao, and Stalin were right to call your average lazy workers saboteurs and wreckers, to put them in prisons and gulags, to subject them to public criticism sessions or secret trials and executions for refusing to work. Once we establish the worker’s state you’ll love your job . . . or else. These poor lost souls have rejected market economies only to make the revolution their boss.
Still other comrades argue that the correct response to work is to organize, or, more explicitly, to unionize. And yet, most of the union organizers I know see their work as an exhausting, thankless, Sisyphean task that nevertheless must be done. My job is already an exhausting thankless Sisyphean task that nevertheless must be done! How will I make my job more palatable by doing a double shift for the union?
smh my dick head :deeper-sadness:
Honestly fuck this. You organize around labor because it is your only theoretical hand on the levers of power on the engine of the industrial firm. Capital is in charge of the industrial firm as it exists and produces, and will and has used that historically unprecedented power to drown and marginalize you and whatever non-industrial movement you come up with. It doesn't even have to use violence, though that is always the backstop, it will simply make and replicate more material culture than you until you are up to your ears in it, no matter how loud you scream that you are a revolutionary.
Its not that lazy workers within a worker state are sabatours or wreckers. They just don't get what exactly is at stake until it is lost, slipped through their hands. Now, we can argue whether or not it was ever in their hands to begin with, but pretending that there never was a chance or project is simply butchering history for western ears.
I think its largely a regional thing, I've been in Twin Cities and it wasn't huge, social anarchism was bigger, but in Portland a lot of the regulars consider themselves nihilists. It might be the age of the the anarchist movement here and the proximity to Eugene and Olympia where primitivists and anarcho punks (rather than social anarchists) held down the movement from the end of the new left to the start of the alter globalization movement.
It doesn't seem to be all that popular, at least in the online spaces that I've been in. Although similar ideas in my experience have been more palpable to people I know irl.
The Anarchist Tension is a great read, thanks for sharing it. I'm also an anarchist but hadn't come across that one yet.
I'm not sure I am familiar with the term 'lifestylists" in this context. Whats it mean in this instance?
People who's politics aren't about organizing towards a revolution but striking back against capitalism or avoiding its worst oppressions on a small scale: stealing from work, absenteeism, squatting, dumpster diving, foraging, sharing with your friends, gardening, etc.
but..people who consider themselves capitalist libs do all that, arguably.
It's interesting how people see themselves.
People around here might get caught with some weed or whatever a few times,go through the system, and will describe themselves as criminals just in conversation.
People in rich areas do the same thing, but are much less likely to be caught. For them it's just part of growing up, on their way to a life of institutionalized tax evasion and privatization and pushing the envelope. They will never, ever, describe themselves as criminals no matter how many times they've been through the court.
