God, they're bending themselves backward to avoid admitting that the USSR won the war.
If you remove US lend lease to the USSR, USSR strength in Europe is down by 5-ish %. If you remove the USSR from US strength in Europe, oh dear.
can you fucking imagine how intolerable right-wingers would be if that were the case
god it would be so funny
Generous of you to assume they’d be consistent. The part of girlboss they care most about is boss
It's not of the same caliber, but I'm eagerly anticipating the boomer memes when the DPRK's latest Kim figurehead happens to be a woman.
Incidentally, while it is no guarantee, I have hope that such a change will be a boon to feminist causes there.
I'm somewhat critical of Juche as I've mentioned elsewhere. But one solid thing about even flawed Socialist States is that they are in fact capable of doing good things, which was only ever true about capitalist states when the SU was threatening them with revolution.
you've given me something to look forward to. i like that quality in a person
By the end of it, so an argument could be made (if you are a dipshit who thinks frontline move by magic)
But ukraine itself was already liberated by june 1944 (the western half). the eastern part was done in 1943.
I mean, it was in 1944 that for the axis it went from “not going well at all” to “run for your lives”. And I mean, one of the main contributions of the US was A-mostly dealing with Japan, B-supplying half the world (including the soviets). The troops sure were important as hell, but not their main contribution
I mean by 1944 germany was done for. It was done for by 1943, but 1944 it was so obvious, i doubt that person (with historic background!) even looked at the eastern front.
Land lease was important, and people may downplay it a bit more than they should, but war stuff is incomprehensible to me.
On grand scale - when they
failedwere stopped at stalingrad/reaching oilfields, but like it requires a lot of whatifs and blahblah. By 1943 soviets were advancing 500 km a year, and germany industry couldn't suddenly double its outputs, so war direction is fairly easy to see.Someone drop that paper/book from the U.S. military directly saying the USSR would have won the war without us
Look I'm a professional i've played a lot of victoria 3 and when the front starts moving like that between great powers it's over, one side has either lost too many men, morale, or materiel to put up an effective defense, much less push back
They were done the moment they didn't finish off the British before invading the USSR
yes, in hindsight they lost in like january of 1942, but because they refused to admit it, it took a few more years to explain it to them.
I mean by 1944 germany was done for.
By June of '44, they were proper fucked.
But the US was officially in the war from '41 and was sending troops into North Africa in '42, which cut into the supply lines of German industry. It isn't impossible to see the Germans securing a peace deal before their Russian invasion went sideways, and there were certainly no small number of American Fascists who would have liked to see a DC/Berlin alliance.
Had the US entered the war on the side of the Germans, rather than the British, that definitely would have been it for the Western facing Allies. So, from an entirely Atlantic perspective, the US saved the British from Germany in the aftermath of 1940. And if all you're talking to are Angloids glued to the History Channel, I guess its fair to say America won the war for Churchill and de Gaulle. The Nazis might still be a thing (at least as far as Fransisco Franco remained a thing) well into the 1970s and 80s, had Americans not backed the English and French up.
It isn't impossible to see the Germans securing a peace deal before their Russian invasion went sideways
i don't see why the UK would ever accept a unipolar europe while the royal navy & empire were still intact. the germans had no way to threaten the island besides bomber sorties and that campaign was a resounding failure
i don't see why the UK would ever accept a unipolar europe while the royal navy & empire were still intact.
The empire was falling apart in real time as colonial revolts popped off around the globe. Ending the European conflict so they could get a lid back on the rest of the empire would have been a better long term strategy than slugging it out with Berlin for another half-decade.
the germans had no way to threaten the island besides bomber sorties and that campaign was a resounding failure
Yemen shut down the entire Red Sea with a few rocket bombs. The Germans could have choked off the UK financially if they'd been more patient and less eager to score smashing blitzkrieg victories in every campaign. At some point, the UK needs steel and fuel, and has relatively limited ways to get it without passing through territory the Germans could threaten.
By the end of the war, England was in a state of near-starvation. There's a great YouTube video of a woman who tries to make meals with English foodstock from the year 1946 to 19...90, one day for each year? The first couple meals are bleak and everyone leaves the table still hungry.
Britain's Empire was meaningless without a europe to sell the goods and resources to, the losses of all UK financiers' investments on the continent, and the reestablishment of trade on unequal terms is simply so counter to the UK ruling class interests & pride it'd take a comprehensive and devastating defeat. which it's doubtful german trade interdiction had any chance of actually forcing, and in any case they didn't have enough time for. Germans, not the UK who were the ones actually under a blockade, which is why they made the M-R pact and rushed Soviet natural resources in Barbarossa
By the end of the war everyone was starving. the UK was actually way better off compared to any participants besides americans (the whole continent)
Britain's Empire was meaningless without a europe to sell the goods and resources to, the losses of all UK financiers' investments on the continent, and the reestablishment of trade on unequal terms is simply so counter to the UK ruling class interests & pride it'd take a comprehensive and devastating defeat.
I mean, what's the alternative? If the US hadn't charged in to save them, they'd have shriveled up and died on their island while Germany took over what parts of the British and French empires could not successfully rebel. Their merchant navy couldn't ply a sea dotted with German submarines and their military couldn't be everywhere at once.
Germans, not the UK who were the ones actually under a blockade, which is why they made the M-R pact and rushed Soviet natural resources in Barbarossa
The Germans could have far more easily and cheaply traded Russia for raw materials. Even had they successfully made it to Moscow, they'd be fighting insurrections across an entire continent. And it isn't like they were short on natural resources. They had all of France and Central Europe and were functionally in control of North Africa before the Americans showed up. But they were in plunder mode rather than doing economic development, so Russia just looked like a giant loot crate rather than a bear trap.
By the end of the war everyone was starving.
All the more reason to take your winnings and get off the table back in '41. Maybe consider doing another mindless intercontinental slaughter in another five or six years, when you've replenished your reserves.
the UK was actually way better off compared to any participants besides americans
The UK hadn't been ground under like Poland or France. And it hadn't half-exhausted itself in a war time economy like Germany or Russia. But it wasn't in a good position after Sealion. They were just in a proven unassailable position. That got them back to where they started in 1347. But without American aid (which wasn't a complete given in the midst of a recessionary relapse under FDR), it wasn't a winning position without access to oil and steel from the colonies.
Between German land-conquest and rebellions in Africa and India and Japan gobbling up territory in the South Pacific, what did the UK have to rebuild with?
Absent America and pissing off the Russians, the Germans had time on their side and the British didn't.
your argument is predicated on two things that did not happen, and did not show any sign of happening.
a) a u-boat blockade of the UK preventing them from getting resources from their colonies. this did not materialize in 1940 or 1941, why it must've in 42 or later is a mystery to me
b) some huge colonial uprising against british rule that could also cut them off from resources. in actuality there was what, Iraq, who got curbstomped? there wasn't as universal opposition to the war from communist/socialist groups because of anti-fascism, and some liberal independence parties wanted to leverage support for the war for independence afterward.
further, a completely twisted vision of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact where the Germans could afford to keep it going in perpetuity, when it was only going to go as long as Soviet leadership felt they needed for a full mobilization and rearmament, to then turn on the nazis. a delayed Barbarossa meant a stronger Red Army.
The UK hadn't been ground under like Poland or France. And it hadn't half-exhausted itself in a war time economy like Germany or Russia. But it wasn't in a good position after Sealion. They were just in a proven unassailable position. That got them back to where they started in 1347. But without American aid (which wasn't a complete given in the midst of a recessionary relapse under FDR), it wasn't a winning position without access to oil and steel from the colonies
the UK was mobilized, several major industrial centres in the south were damaged, their shipping industry was damaged. i don't know what kind of point this is that somehow the UK having higher standards of living post-war, but also not as much of an economic disruption, means something was wrong with their capacity to prosecute the war? no idea what you're saying about sealion either
a) a u-boat blockade of the UK preventing them from getting resources from their colonies. this did not materialize in 1940 or 1941, why it must've in 42 or later is a mystery to me
German U-boats sank over 2400 British merchant ships during the Battle of the Atlantic which lasted from '39 to '45. Less than the 3500 destroyed by the Allies, but hardly insignificant. The US strategy to beat the Germans was to produce ships faster than the Germans could sink them, and US-made Liberty Ships (over 2700 produced after 1941) were ultimately what kept the UK supplied.
Again, without the US, the UK could not have successfully maintained enough supplies to maintain their existing fleet.
further, a completely twisted vision of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact where the Germans could afford to keep it going in perpetuity, when it was only going to go as long as Soviet leadership felt they needed for a full mobilization and rearmament, to then turn on the nazis. a delayed Barbarossa meant a stronger Red Army.
That's predicated on the assumption that the Soviets were eager for a renewed conflict, when Stalin's "Communism in one country" model suggested they were perfectly content to play espionage games over the border without returning to the WW1/Russian Civil War era slaughter. Delaying Barbosa would give the Soviets time to fortify. But there's little to suggest they were eager to invade occupied German territory.
i don't know what kind of point this is that somehow the UK having higher standards of living post-war, but also not as much of an economic disruption, means something was wrong with their capacity to prosecute the war?
The UK had a starkly lower standard of living at the end of the war than at the start, to the point of malnutrition. And even that standard was enormously predicated on US support. If the US hadn't remained loyal to the British, they could not have maintained fuel for their navy or food for their people. The UK owes its existence to the US.
there's the word Battle in the battle of the Atlantic, 783 of 1183 total submarines and most of the german surface fleet were destroyed in this same period. they weren't sitting on their asses letting germans plink their shipping, anti-submarine warfare technology was continually improving and letting the allies destroy german naval assets. there's a kernel of plausibility in a blockade being accomplished with submarines, like Japan was by the US, but the germans are missing the essential ingredient to that: the destruction of the enemy fleet so it can't retaliate and protect it's shipping. even so, how long did Japan keep up the fight under a total blockade? 2-3 years? i'd like to see the state of the mighty third reich in 1946 after 6 years of blockade, resistance, and cannibalization of industry
there's little to suggest they were eager to invade occupied German territory
just the universal view that war was inevitable, an ideological commitment to anti-fascism, and an unavoidable humanitarian impetus once the nazis start mass-killings? but they need not even advance, once the army is ready there'd be no reason to supply the germans further, precipitating their attack or collapse from lack of resources.
lower standard of living at the end of the war than at the start
nobody disputes this, but you're refusing to compare them to anybody else, people were dying of starvation in the rest of the world, in victorious nations like the USSR even. the germans were dying in the hundreds of thousands at the end of the war.
exactly how is british people being a bit malnutritioned compared to germany's literal plan to starve millions of people because germany could not feed itself under blockade a point for germany being able to starve out the UK? your conclusion is a perfect opposite of the what these facts suggest.
I mean, even the western front was not going well by 1943. Africa had been dealt with by the end of it, and the Allies had successfully sent some huskys to Palermo
B-supplying half the world (including the soviets).
This phrasing makes it sound like Russia was running entirely or even mostly on what America supplied it when that is not the case.
Of course not, but America did supply a lot of food and industrial equipment which was probably crucial for the war effort (of course the british were a lot more dependent on Lend Lease than the soviets, but the point remains)
"I have a degree in history. The Allied [sic] would not have one [sic] without America"
did the Americans greatly contribute etc.
"That's right! Without American intervention countless Nazis would have been held accountable and wouldn't have been placed in government and intelligence positions to thwart the evil Communist menace!"Not just that, without America and Britain where would Hitler have got the idea of racial hierarchy and imperialism? So to say the US wasn’t important in the war is STALINIST propaganda.
When you talk about propaganda, what's most damning is how simple, uncontestable facts -- like the U.S. making up a large minority of troops at Normandy -- get flipped on their head, to where many (most?) Americans think it was "mostly" U.S. troops doing the fighting and dying.
That's what you want to focus on if you're trying to talk to some lib about propaganda, not
shit like when precisely the Allied victory was inevitable.It was mostly American troops doing the dying at least. They had fewer vehicles, got unlucky in terms of the German positions and supposedly refused to take advice from the British and Canadian forces because the commander was a notorious anglophobe.
the commander was a notorious anglophobe.
That much is relatable, at least
I don't know, I think it's cool right up to the point where you get people whose lives you are responsible for killed.
The US was (and still is) ideologically aligned with the Nazis, and only joined WW2 in the 11th hour because Japan forced them to with the attack on Pearl Harbor. To think that the US "won the war" or should be uniquely congratulated for their contributions to the war is... absurd. If anyone should be awarded that honor, it's the Soviets.
Edit: I really like this place. Yall taught me so much in the replies and it felt welcoming to learn it. This type of discourse seems so rare to find these days. Thank you comrades!
You can go way further than that. The US initially only declared war on Japan and not Germany, only to join the European Theatre later.
There are various interpretations of this, but it seems plain to me that they were hoping the Nazis would beat the Soviets and the US could decide what to do from there, but once the Soviets began to resist more effectively, the US needed to make sure that the Soviets wouldn't get control of the entirety of Germany's manufacturing capacity in the case that they won out*, so they joined in Europe to ensure the liberal coalition would control a portion of Germany.**
*Which most historians agree they would have, even without the US
**Which is indeed what happened
This was also almost the only reason the US dropped both bombs on an already-surrendering Japan, to ensure control of the negotiations and that the Soviets got as little as possible.
Killing 200,000 civilians to get a leg up on the Russkies
I would argue that Japan didn't even force them to enter the war. America chose to enter the war to beat the soviets to the pacific theatre, so that they could prevent an unconditional surrender to the Soviets.
the US declared an embargo on japan in july 1941, when the red army was fielding losses in the hundreds of thousands in the first month of barbarossa. to make japan attack them and take their colonies. so they'd have an excuse to get to the pacific before the Soviet Union.
Yeah, the war was in a sailmate before that. What don't you understand? No one could get boats through thanks to the underwater tubes of semen.
"If America didn't join the war, Allied very likely would not have one."
cold war / new cold war mentality breaks westerners' brains so immaculately that the concept of "alliance" is just completely unimaginable to them. the 'Allies' won ww2 all the large and small allied countries contributed meaningfully (besides like the 1945-entrants, lol). everyone trying to make like one country did it alone has to purposefully ignore huge parts of the war for cold-war narrative points
The funny part: American loses were triple Brittish loses. How has no American asked, why were the American War Pig Generals willing to sacrifice 3x the number of their own men?
If Americans hadn't firebombed Dresden, Hitler would have won the war.
Staline? Is that a neovim plugin?
Edit: It actually is LMAO
No investigation, no right to speak. Condescension and smug attitudes are not actually a substitute for real knowledge.
that feeling when no Vonnegut emote
was there too.
