Hahaha uh huh. I'm not sure how to argue against this, tbh. It's too blind to imperialism and colonialism I'm not sure where to start. I think the point is that the people aren't 'developing', they're 'being developed' in a way that is making their culture disappear. Most notably language, which is the classic canary in the genocidal coal mine.
Maybe you could offer your personal definition of cultural genocide?
The Armenian Genocide Museum defines cultural genocide as "acts and measures undertaken to destroy nations' or ethnic groups' culture through spiritual, national, and cultural destruction." wiki
I do not see that in Xinjiang.
When you talk about language, why is it bad for Uyghurs to learn Mandarin if that helps them better integrate and understand wider society?
For example, wouldn't it be better if migrants in the US who only speak Spanish were taught English so they can better interact with the rest of the population?
Additionally, that doesn't mean that your language is now banned either, just that your horizon broadens.
I mean, I don't complain about being taught English as a 2nd language at school.
Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.
Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus. People are saying it's more complicated than your euro-centric, western media-addled brain. Disingenuous fucking hack.
Not exactly equivalent to “Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus… Disingenuous fucking hack.” but fair point.
I was a bit irked by “Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.” handwaiving my experiences and understandings, rather than directly engaging with what I’m saying. Believe it or not, it’s possible to have a different opinion for reasons unrelated to misunderstanding, imperialism, or innate intelligence.
I know a few people from China, or whose parents are from China. And for some reason, funnily enough, we’ve talked about race before. And racism exists in China. It’s not some imperialist western thing to say that there is racism within China haha that’s absurd. And it of course plays into everything, as racism does.
Imo, I would counter the charge of ‘western imperialism addled brain’ with ‘leftist apologists unwilling to recognize obvious racism because that’s not a part of the promise of Chinese socialism’, but that’s a bit too spicy for me to spit without heavily couching it in statements like ‘but who among us really knows for sure’.
Obviously not equivalent, still. To be clear, I wasn't saying racism doesn't exist in China and I don't think that's what his comment was meant to mean either.
But let's just leave it at that.
People were saying that upthread, and other people were pointing out reasons that that's probably not true- but that is where the conversation was.
My point here isn't to say "they're not allowing people to learn their language", it's that we should refute that argument on the basis of whether that is or isn't happening, not on the basis that that wouldn't actualy be repression, which was how I took what you said.
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is… unclear.
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
I don’t have the emotional capacity for this
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
Thank you for the reminder, comrade haha not one of my most popular takes on this site ig. At least I got some other comments in here that ppl liked so people know I'm not just being a disingenuous anti-China person
Well then by that definition any development of a specific region with a distinct culture is cultural genocide.
I don't think that that is helpful.
Hahaha uh huh. I'm not sure how to argue against this, tbh. It's too blind to imperialism and colonialism I'm not sure where to start. I think the point is that the people aren't 'developing', they're 'being developed' in a way that is making their culture disappear. Most notably language, which is the classic canary in the genocidal coal mine.
Maybe you could offer your personal definition of cultural genocide?
Not my definition:
I do not see that in Xinjiang.
When you talk about language, why is it bad for Uyghurs to learn Mandarin if that helps them better integrate and understand wider society?
For example, wouldn't it be better if migrants in the US who only speak Spanish were taught English so they can better interact with the rest of the population?
Additionally, that doesn't mean that your language is now banned either, just that your horizon broadens.
I mean, I don't complain about being taught English as a 2nd language at school.
Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.
lol @ ppl claiming racism doesn't exist in China
Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus. People are saying it's more complicated than your euro-centric, western media-addled brain. Disingenuous fucking hack.
Half of your comment: "Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus... Disingenuous fucking hack."
I mean you weren't coming in with a good faith argument either, were you?
Not exactly equivalent to “Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus… Disingenuous fucking hack.” but fair point.
I was a bit irked by “Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.” handwaiving my experiences and understandings, rather than directly engaging with what I’m saying. Believe it or not, it’s possible to have a different opinion for reasons unrelated to misunderstanding, imperialism, or innate intelligence.
I know a few people from China, or whose parents are from China. And for some reason, funnily enough, we’ve talked about race before. And racism exists in China. It’s not some imperialist western thing to say that there is racism within China haha that’s absurd. And it of course plays into everything, as racism does.
Imo, I would counter the charge of ‘western imperialism addled brain’ with ‘leftist apologists unwilling to recognize obvious racism because that’s not a part of the promise of Chinese socialism’, but that’s a bit too spicy for me to spit without heavily couching it in statements like ‘but who among us really knows for sure’.
Obviously not equivalent, still. To be clear, I wasn't saying racism doesn't exist in China and I don't think that's what his comment was meant to mean either.
But let's just leave it at that.
deleted by creator
probably shouldve been all of it, these are wrecker level takes
There's a difference between being taught Mandarin and not being taught the Uyghur language.
I agree with your point broadly, but it's worth keeping a more open mind considering what (varying degrees of) repression of a culture can look like
Who says that in Xinjiang they are not being taught their local language anymore?
People were saying that upthread, and other people were pointing out reasons that that's probably not true- but that is where the conversation was.
My point here isn't to say "they're not allowing people to learn their language", it's that we should refute that argument on the basis of whether that is or isn't happening, not on the basis that that wouldn't actualy be repression, which was how I took what you said.
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
:heart-sickle:
that ratio fam
Thank you for the reminder, comrade haha not one of my most popular takes on this site ig. At least I got some other comments in here that ppl liked so people know I'm not just being a disingenuous anti-China person
lol its all good fam I think you came around to a good faith eventually which I appreciate, just later on in the thread 😅